With all due respect, The perplexity is in the science and interpreting to how it works for NBE. I can understand the reluctance to try new things?. I think we've made big strides in terms of maximizing programs. I'm tellin ya the info is out and it needs interpretation, so far with my muddling what I've uncovered would upset the normal bounds of reason for interrupting the changes in ones plan.


Here's one example,
(This next section is from the thread would this surprise you about Pm.)
By modulating androgen receptor coactivators, daidzein may act as a phytoandrogen
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...0/abstract

Bottom line there is no magic pill, we have overlaps on numerous supplements,
But if you had these basics:

So a solid cycle could look like:
1 estrogenic herb
1 pro-hormone
1 pro-aromatase
1 potentiator (vitamins/minerals, etc)

Now, I've overlapped these and have experimented as well, I'll be updating soon.


Abby had a complex plan and all seemed in awe ok it , Tibetan princess! Plan was complex, she got results, I'm just sayin if we can do that, then we certainly can do this.


???? I'll offer any assistance if anybody needs helps, and btw it's usually 10 to 15 people a week that I get PM's asking for help, which I give my time willingly.


So the offer stands to anybody.


Flame you have a critical piece in your program is (PABA,)
PABA-Decreases breakdown of estrogen in your body so you have more free estrogen.

We have the tool, recent reports say chemical composition in PM is stronger than E2.

I think we're figuring out which ones synthesizes better, so I know what's worked for me. Yes I'll post an update for ya.

Sorry my ambien is kicking in, apologies, TYL

Eloise,

I'm sorry if I offended you. I probably could have phrased it better, but my intention was to offer a dissenting opinion and nothing more.

I thought there was some conversion of T to E as well, which means you would want more T available, I thought. And SP and spearmint was used to block T receptors, meaning less E was needed to do the job.

Also, a little over a year ago there was lots of chatter about back pain when taking PM at night.

I could be way off here.

Everyone is tossing in their opinion, so here's another...

I find the whole endocrinology science so complex as to be practically incomprehensible to mere morals (Mistress Lotus excepted). My view is that if you have a simple program that is working, stick with it. If it's not working try something else that has potential based on the experience of others. It's quite clear that each human body reacts differently, so the concept of a "unified theory" of breast growth is not realistic.

Don't get me wrong, I love to read about the research that M. Lotus has gathered for our consumption and application. It's great reading ... almost ...

Personally, I like this strategy:

1) Keep it simple
2) If it ain't broke, don't fix it
3) Good things come to those who wait

Yeah, just a collection of cliches, but it works for me.

Clara

I'm sure I'll step on more toes here, (not my intent) as I've said before I'm on the same team. I think I've said before to keep your program simple. However, mine is more complex, and that's my choice. I'm certainly no endo, and I understand a fraction of what endocrinology is. What pushed me for more knowledge is people like Abi, Isabelle, and my dear Princess. And what was complex, I learned along the way.

Let me give an example of what some knowledge can do for your program, a week ago I stumbled over this study about the outward growth of the ductal system and progesterone causes side branching. So at first I'm like, wtf?, ok then, now I want to understand what I can do to influence it, seems simple enough right?.

Ok people, who's up for a little NBE science?

• Prolactin and progesterone may enhance ductal outgrowth by inducing ERα expression.
  

• Activation of ER-α causes elongation or horizontal growth of mammary duct cells. Progesterone receptor activation causes side-branching of mammary gland cells. Density, areolar gland development, and gland lactation development are caused by prolactin receptor activation.
  

Check pages 5 thru 9
Hormone Action in the Mammary Gland
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2982168/

Or along the way I find out about this statement made about pygeum,

Just an update, I've been trying to find Pygeum on it's own (I hate complex giant pills full of tiny amounts of other stuff thats mostly ineffective) but several of the more pure ones (Pygeum, SP) contain also Willowherb, in particular, Epilobium parviflorum.

Be warned, while it does also inhibit the same metabolite as SP to reduce DHT. It is ALSO an amaratose inhibitor which inhibits the conversion of testosterone to Estradiol in both men and women.

Which makes sense for a product being marketed to men with prostate problems due to excess testosterone. They want to block off the T, yes, but they don't want to increase the E.

A product containing an aromatase inhibitor is perfect for them.

So what info would you follow, the research that you've found on your own or Abi's?, I'd say both, it's your choice. I really don't understand all the fuss, we all had our own experimental phases (still do), seems we can't tell people to just keep it simple when we ourselves have done just the opposite.

I'm excited when someone wants to know that it takes more than popping a few supplements and sitting back and waiting for the results. If the solution of NBE was solved, then nobody would be here, so this is just the progression of it. And for those who thirst for knowledge, don't settle for the average!!!, keep plugging away!.

Lotus you are the best!

...it's modifying DNA. And that's something I'm not going do blindly nor passively.

Modifying DNA? No. Messing with your endocrine system yes, but DNA is fixed and unchangeable.

FWIW I take my estradiol before bed and 1000mg PM when I wake hoping my estrogen is high in the morning as it is in genetic females AND present to offset testosterone as Pansy-Mae said. A little in the afternoon to keep it available and that's it. I agree with others though, it's not rocket science ...but if it is no one here is a rocket scientist.

Lotus, hon, my comment wasn't intended to discredit those who choose to follow a more complex program. It makes sense to evolve one's program over time. Beginners are best served by a simple program like just PM, not even an AA at first. But, as things progress assuming they do, (and if not, more drastic action is certainly justified), growth will tend to slow and even stall. It then makes sense to add to one's program to reinvigorate growth or target other feminization objectives. It seems completely reasonable that those who have been on an NBE program for 2 years or more would tend to have more complex programs than we who are just getting started. It assumes that over those years, experiments were undertaken to determine the effects of other herbs that influence other relevant endo mechanisms. Then, it's even more important to have regular blood tests to monitor liver and kidney health.

The other aspect of choosing an NBE program is deciding what your ultimate objective is. My original objective was focused on obtaining mental benefits, not breast growth. PM alone was more than adequate to achieve that objective. Now, in the middle of my 5th month, I'm much more interested in other aspects of feminization, so I'm adding anti-androgens. Tomorrow, who knows? An unknown percentage of those who have come to Breast Nexus over the years have gone on to formal HRT treatment and full transitioning. Most of those end up on typically just two drugs, albeit powerful ones. And, after SRS, only one. Talk about simplicity!

Bottom line for me is: take the PM whenever it's convenient. If you want to experiment with dosages, schedules, breaks, with or without food, with or without calcium, etc., that's fine. I've done it myself, but I have to say, it's very difficult to see any difference in the rate of growth in the short term. The only thing that seems to provide meaningful feedback is breast soreness.

Go for maximum pain! LOL

Clara

...it's modifying DNA. And that's something I'm not going do blindly nor passively.

Modifying DNA? No. Messing with your endocrine system yes, but DNA is fixed and unchangeable.

FWIW I take my estradiol before bed and 1000mg PM when I wake hoping my estrogen is high in the morning as it is in genetic females AND present to offset testosterone as Pansy-Mae said. A little in the afternoon to keep it available and that's it. I agree with others though, it's not rocket science ...but if it is no one here is a rocket scientist.

Messing with your endocrine systems messes with your RNA which in turn can mess with aspects of your DNA. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC224261/)

By the way, it was not my intention to create a kerfuffle in this thread. I was just curious as to when people took PM and what people thought of the notion of the t-cycle in relation to taking PM. All I wanted to do was generate some data that could help answer a question; not attain empathy for Copernicus.

If you like your regime and it works for you, keep your regime. It's your body. I wasn't trying to say anything to the contrary.

And I do apologize if I have come off as prickly.

...it's modifying DNA. And that's something I'm not going do blindly nor passively.

Modifying DNA? No. Messing with your endocrine system yes, but DNA is fixed and unchangeable.

FWIW I take my estradiol before bed and 1000mg PM when I wake hoping my estrogen is high in the morning as it is in genetic females AND present to offset testosterone as Pansy-Mae said. A little in the afternoon to keep it available and that's it. I agree with others though, it's not rocket science ...but if it is no one here is a rocket scientist.

Messing with your endocrine systems messes with your RNA which in turn can mess with aspects of your DNA. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC224261/)

By the way, it was not my intention to create a kerfuffle in this thread. I was just curious as to when people took PM and what people thought of the notion of the t-cycle in relation to taking PM. All I wanted to do was generate some data that could help answer a question; not attain empathy for Copernicus.

If you like your regime and it works for you, keep your regime. It's your body. I wasn't trying to say anything to the contrary.

And I do apologize if I have come off as prickly.

I believe in continuous learning . Nbe subject is not very well researched since there are no mega bucks to be made out of it . There is lot of research done which is out there but the information is fragmented. It is credit to LOTUS that he takes time to research and try to make sense of it for us mere mortals .

This information is not forced down anyone's throat , as it is individiual's choice as to accept it or not . The freedom of choice belongs to individuals.

The parallel I can draw is , if you are happy with ford model T , than why not !
But if you want a Ferrari than you have to get into niti griti .

That's my 2 penny's worth of useless twaddle