Breast Growth For Genetic Males

That's so great that iron's actually helping already! Oh, the things you may learn through NBE! Lol
I've been looking at the Tanner stages a lot the past few days, too. I'm starting to wonder if I have actually even hit stage 5 yet. ^^; That's great if you're already at the beginning of stage 3! How exciting! Let's just hope you can get everything squared away so you get all your stuff! >.< Oh, if only there were NBE stores everywhere outside of the internet...

(10-11-2012, 09:25 PM)Doll Wrote: [ -> ]That's so great that iron's actually helping already! Oh, the things you may learn through NBE! Lol
I've been looking at the Tanner stages a lot the past few days, too. I'm starting to wonder if I have actually even hit stage 5 yet. ^^; That's great if you're already at the beginning of stage 3! How exciting! Let's just hope you can get everything squared away so you get all your stuff! >.< Oh, if only there were NBE stores everywhere outside of the internet...

Yeah! It's crazy! Though I didn't really learn I had an iron deficiency because of NBE... shrug.

My stuff... well... the PM is here, and the estradiol is technically illegal. Hormones in this lovely country of ours are a controlled substance which requires prescriptions for use. If anyone's a vet and wants to make up a pet horse for me I know of a way to get it in the states...

Also if anyone's a doctor and wants to just write me a prescription...

Technically even if I HAD a prescription, estradiol is illegal to import to the USA. Thanks to the very lovely Corporate American big Pharma lobbying a certain law into the books. It's a PITA because both parties need to be able to pretend we know nothing in case the package gets examined at customs and seized.

I don't know why PC escapes the requirements... I won't be at all surprised though if big Pharma manages to control that some day too though.

Anyways, since everything ELSE is here, I'll be starting my cycling plan tomorrow. Minus the Estradiol and half the PC. Big update post then.

My money is finally on it's way to Hong Kong... It'll probably be at least till next cycle before I can get started on estradiol valerate... Until then I'll be sticking with just PM and halving the PC dosing compared to what I'd be doing if I had estradiol valerate to take.

I really had intended to do a big post on the weekend and then just never got around to it. Oh well. I'll try to whip one together by next 3 day weekend even though that'll be halfway through the cycle.

AD,

I've been looking over your charts and graphs on page 10. Besides wondering why you are going to use the EV, I have some observations concerning the PC and your purposed plan.

1. The PC I bought recommends 2-4 1/4 tsp doses each day for 21 days on and seven days off. Each 1/4 tsp has approx. 22 mg of Progesterone in the cream I purchased. By that gauge, your dosage peaking at four 1/4 tsps during the middle of your "follicular" stage seems rather conservative.

2. The PC's recommended dosage is about 84 tsps each month. Your initial goal appears to be about 1/3 of that.

3. Because the PC's directions also said that the doses could be increased as required, higher dosages for short durations, to mimic a female's natural system, should be fine.

4. Plot this progression on a chart to compare against yours and please let me know what you think.

Day......PM Caps.......PC 1/4 tsp
1..............2...................0
2..............2...................0
3..............3...................0
4..............2...................0
5..............2...................0
6..............2...................0
7..............3...................0
8..............4...................0
9..............5...................0
10............6...................0
11............7...................0
12............8...................1
13............8...................1
14............7...................1
15............5...................3
16............4...................4
17............3...................6
18............4...................8
19............5...................9
20............6...................9
21............5...................9
22............4...................8
23............3...................7
24............2...................5
25............2...................3
26............2...................1
27............2...................1
28............2...................0

The PM caps are Ainterol's 500 mg caps, as opposed to your drops, a 2:1 difference.

Just curious to your thoughts about my observations.

JTX

(15-11-2012, 09:36 PM)JTX Wrote: [ -> ]AD,

I've been looking over your charts and graphs on page 10. Besides wondering why you are going to use the EV, I have some observations concerning the PC and your purposed plan.

1. The PC I bought recommends 2-4 1/4 tsp doses each day for 21 days on and seven days off. Each 1/4 tsp has approx. 22 mg of Progesterone in the cream I purchased. By that gauge, your dosage peaking at four 1/4 tsps during the middle of your "follicular" stage seems rather conservative.

2. The PC's recommended dosage is about 84 tsps each month. Your initial goal appears to be about 1/3 of that.

3. Because the PC's directions also said that the doses could be increased as required, higher dosages for short durations, to mimic a female's natural system, should be fine.

4. Plot this progression on a chart to compare against yours and please let me know what you think.

Day......PM Caps.......PC 1/4 tsp
1..............2...................0
2..............2...................0
3..............3...................0
4..............2...................0
5..............2...................0
6..............2...................0
7..............3...................0
8..............4...................0
9..............5...................0
10............6...................0
11............7...................0
12............8...................1
13............8...................1
14............7...................1
15............5...................3
16............4...................4
17............3...................6
18............4...................8
19............5...................9
20............6...................9
21............5...................9
22............4...................8
23............3...................7
24............2...................5
25............2...................3
26............2...................1
27............2...................1
28............2...................0

The PM caps are Ainterol's 500 mg caps, as opposed to your drops, a 2:1 difference.

Just curious to your thoughts about my observations.

JTX

I dunno about your body, but I'm already almost certain I'm already towards the high end of a male progesterone level, which would mean between 10-15 mg is circulating in my blood supply naturally. Also it does appear I was not entirely clear in my wording, but once I add the EV I -will- be taking it twice a day. If I were to take 1/2 tsp in a day I'll be adding roughly 41 to 42 mg bringing me to somewhere in the neighborhood of 51-57 mg of progesterone in my entire bloodstream. When taken in the context given just now, that's really a LOT of progesterone. Especially when you consider the "staying" power of PC in the body after it is applied. You could extrapolate that my intended absolute peak progesterone level is likely in the neighborhood of 65 mg.

The recommended dosing on the label of PC creams are intended for post menopausal women, whose P levels can sometimes be even lower than the lower end of male P levels. IE - undetectable. At their suggested dosage, you're basically completely replacing a non-existant progesterone supply.

So yes, I am planning on taking far less progesterone than is suggested on the label.

As to why I'm planning to take EV - I feel the need for more than one type of estrogen for my purposes. I'm a transsexual who is looking to feminize herself as completely as is possible. Thus flooding all my E and P receptors is the ultimate goal of my supplementation. Just using PM cannot flood all receptors, ultimately, no matter how much PM you take, it will fail to bind to some alpha receptors. Human estradiol, whether natural or synthesized by a lab from diosgenin, will mop up those remaining receptors and the combination should provide me with the most complete flood possible.

Progesterone is a different beast entirely. I really don't want to risk flooding any of my P receptors with any known progestins. They're all of them toxic in some way or another. But at a peak of 65mg, I'll be doing a pretty good number on them, and since it's all USP - equivalent to naturally produced human progesterone - the risks are minimal.

EDIT: BTW... Everything I just said I said without bothering to plug your numbers in a chart. I really didn't need to. Your PC numbers are likely needlessly high unless you have a naturally low progesterone production. As for the PM... I'm really not completely certain that the pills and drops are so easily compared in potency. The liquid extract is precisely extracted and I know EXACTLY how much deoxy and miroestrol I'm getting from it. The pills are not standardized and could contain a range of amounts of the powerful estrols compared to other constituents.

I am curious as to whether you have been able to begin your female hormone emulation regimen yet? If so, results yet?

Likewise, as far as male progesterone production, what I have been able to find is that males, sixteen and older, produce less than post-menopausal women. If you have research to the contrary, please educate me. However, I have reduced my projections of the progesterone dosages by 1/3 for precaution's sake.

Thanks,

JTX

(20-11-2012, 04:13 AM)JTX Wrote: [ -> ]I am curious as to whether you have been able to begin your female hormone emulation regimen yet? If so, results yet?

Partially. It's going to be quite some time yet for the estradiol to arrive. I'm currently on "day 9" and just beginning the first ramp up to the peak estrogen level, but using only PM. When I begin using PC I will only be using half of my projected amounts since I will not be using estradiol yet.

It's too early to demonstrably say with certainty that this plan is having any greater result than simply taking a constant dose had been, but it does feel better to me so far. And it SEEMS that my breasts might be responding more quickly, but as I said, it's only day 9, I've only just gone up to 4 drops of PM, so it's impossible to really say yet.

(20-11-2012, 04:13 AM)JTX Wrote: [ -> ]Likewise, as far as male progesterone production, what I have been able to find is that males, sixteen and older, produce less than post-menopausal women. If you have research to the contrary, please educate me. However, I have reduced my projections of the progesterone dosages by 1/3 for precaution's sake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone#Levels

If you look at that chart (which does provide references, but the chart is so much more convenient in Wikipedia's format than any reference formats...)

Anyways... If you look at that chart, you'll note that progesterone becomes undetectable below levels of 0.2 ng/mL or 0.6 nmol/L... And the lower range of postmenopausal women is "<" or LESS THAN those numbers. Their upper range remains above the upper range in men, but barely, and remember, post-menopause, women's hormones no longer fluctuate that widely, so those women whose levels are undetectable at any point in their cycle are likely to be no more than barely detectable even at best.

My PC actually has a range of recommended dosages, and I'm starting at the lowest and going to the highest, and back down.

Again, if you refer to the menstrual cycle chart on that same page, according to the earlier chart if I am correct about my "normal" P level, I'm right around 3 nmol/L, which is actually slightly high for a low P level on the menstrual cycle. But that's okay, as long as I don't go overboard on the supplementation when raising it to peak level.

(20-11-2012, 04:13 AM)JTX Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks,

No Problem! Hormones really are a very complex beast and especially female hormones. Trying to take a "male" starting point and making it emulate the "female" cycle is NOT as easy as just copy and pasting what I'm doing, for sure. You need to determine as best you can where you normally sit on your own progesterone, it may be that you're naturally low and might even want to supplement with a very low dose all cycle and then still do the ramp up as well. Then again, I'm just a "transvestite rookie" so what do I know...

Good luck,

Abi.

I am almost twice your size, too...

Body mass may have something to do with absorption concentration.

(20-11-2012, 09:27 PM)JTX Wrote: [ -> ]I am almost twice your size, too...

Body mass may have something to do with absorption concentration.

Oh. Most definitely!

Larger body mass means more blood means lower concentrations from the same doses.

Even if you're starting the same as me, you might be safe doing twice as much as me just because of the body mass difference.

My PM regimen begins Monday. One week to get used to it and then December 1st will start my version of the Female cycle emulation. I was thinking along the same lines that you went and then I saw your post. Seems quite logical to persue this path as it is the way God made it work for girls.

From my minimal experience, E may grow the breast, but PC seems to build it from the inside. Just a humble observation...

JTX