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Mothers

#11

(07-02-2014, 09:23 PM)Miranda-nata-est Wrote:  I guess it all reverts to the perennial argument - environment verses genetics - I don’t perceive anything in my genetic past which would have made me receptive to the changes which I now seem to be embracing but neither do I really see that the difficulties of my youth, which subsequently gave me a tremendous appreciation of different lifestyles the cause for the self identity issues I now face....

You touched on a point, Miranda, that I wanted to expand on briefly. There is a body of evidence, or at least educated speculation, that one's gender identity is determined not at conception, but during fetal development in the womb. Thus, it's primarily a congenital, not a genetic phenomenon.

The theory goes that the bio-male fetus's brain must be subject to a certain level of testosterone from the mother and the fetus for the brain to develop as would be expected for a boy. If there's insufficient T, the brain stays more or less like that of a female. The degree to which this occurs varies widely so as to produce the broad spectrum of gender identity mismatch that we see in the population.

BTW, I like this theory whether it's true or not. Part of my seeking acceptance from my wife relied on this theory to explain my gender-variant nature. It's nobody's fault, and there's nothing that can undo it.

Clara Smile
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#12

(07-02-2014, 05:46 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  My mother was the strong type. Ran the household, managed the finances, raised the kids. She was someone I looked up to. My father was the breadwinner, steady and reliable. He was someone I looked up to.

They had a rocky marriage, however. I dare say they hated each other.

Did my mother, in that context, affect my feminine gender leanings? Maybe, but I doubt it. I believe her influence on my gender identity all happened in the womb. Post birth, who can say to what extent?

Clara Smile

Damn, Clara, as the onion is peeled, another layer of our similar backgrounds. I can say ditto on your description of your mom and dad, except for the “hating” each other. Mine loved each other deeply, for 70 years of marriage, the best that they knew how. My father grew up in a cold, conservative religious home, with a tyrant for a father and an overbearing mother. My mother was the quintessential ‘daddy’s girl.’ In the eyes of their parents, neither was good enough for the other, for much different reasons. My dad was a bit of a lady’s man… no, that’s not true. My dad was a pussy hound. I understand now, that a catalyst for his actions was the result of PTSD from WW II. Of course, no one knew what that was back then. He loved my mother, but could not be monogamous. So my mother devoted her time and energy to her home and her children.
I have written elsewhere that I was the youngest of 3 children with two older sisters, 7 and 9 years older than me, and the youngest of 16 grandchildren for my maternal grandmother. I was the baby, the “golden child,” as one of my ex-wives referred to me.
My dad was gone a lot, working and “working,” so my mother, sisters and grandmother filled the void. My mother was the typical upper middle class housewife, stay at home mom of the 50s and 60s… she would have been given Donna Reed a run for her money! (kudos to those of you who get it!) My sisters took over when they got home from school and during the summers, and my grandmother popped in almost daily. I grew up listening to and watching them. They were my role models. When I was too old for my sisters to play dress up with me, I took to raiding the hamper in the bathroom and when I was left alone their dresser drawers to dress myself… ah, but that’s another story….
I have no idea about genetic predisposition, or the fetal/testosterone/womb theory, but I do know that my attitudes toward women and men, my core view of myself as a person and a sexual being, and the ability I have always had to empathize (and sympathize) with women more than men is a direct result of the impact that my mother, sisters, and grandmother had on me.
I could go on and on about how many mannerisms I learned, speech patterns, and probably thought patterns are directly attributable to their influence on me. Are those things typically male? No. Are some of them considered feminine by others? Occasionally. Have I spent my life mimicking male behavior that I learned from my father and other males that played a significant role in my life? Yes. Have I been comfortable doing that? Mostly not. So now, at this stage of my life, the question I must answer is how far do I go in pursuing me? I guess all I can say my sisters, is, “stay tuned!” Big Grin
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#13

(07-02-2014, 09:50 PM)ClaraKay Wrote:  
(07-02-2014, 09:23 PM)Miranda-nata-est Wrote:  I guess it all reverts to the perennial argument - environment verses genetics - I don’t perceive anything in my genetic past which would have made me receptive to the changes which I now seem to be embracing but neither do I really see that the difficulties of my youth, which subsequently gave me a tremendous appreciation of different lifestyles the cause for the self identity issues I now face....

You touched on a point, Miranda, that I wanted to expand on briefly. There is a body of evidence, or at least educated speculation, that one's gender identity is determined not at conception, but during fetal development in the womb. Thus, it's primarily a congenital, not a genetic phenomenon.

The theory goes that the bio-male fetus's brain must be subject to a certain level of testosterone from the mother and the fetus for the brain to develop as would be expected for a boy. If there's insufficient T, the brain stays more or less like that of a female. The degree to which this occurs varies widely so as to produce the broad spectrum of gender identity mismatch that we see in the population.

BTW, I like this theory whether it's true or not. Part of my seeking acceptance from my wife relied on this theory to explain my gender-variant nature. It's nobody's fault, and there's nothing that can undo it.

Clara Smile

Yeah but now your wife has one more reason to resent her mother-in-law, lol.
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#14

(08-02-2014, 01:27 AM)Jessica Leigh Wrote:  Yeah but now your wife has one more reason to resent her mother-in-law, lol.

Yeah, they don't have a close relationship by any measure; but my wife once thanked my mother for raising such a wonderful son. That's before she found out she also raised a wonderful daughter. Big Grin

Clara Smile
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#15

Thanks to you all...Wink
I love the aspect of this board that allows us to reveal ourselves so unflinchingly and in the process brings us closer together.
I brought up this thread because I have a vested interest in pursuing this line of thought myself.
Clara, I remember clearly the old discussion on this board regarding certain chemicals given to women to prevent miscarriages several decades ago, and how those chemicals have been shown to have upset the hormonal makeup of the unborn child, often leading to a male child with a "different" arrangement of hormonal balance at birth. I took great interest in that. My mother lost a child during the four years between the birth of my brother and myself. Though she is no longer living for me to ask, I suspect she would, during the pregnancy that led to me, have been a prime candidate for "state of the art" medicines to prevent miscarriage. So it would seem we may have that in common, sweetheart.
But "nature" seems to me only half the equation. As compelling as the theory is, I believe the outcome is always a mix of "nature" and "nurture" rather than an either or answer.
In my case there is another wrinkle, which it has taken me years to be able to face, and confront in order to understand.
Of course, There are still "miles to go and promises to keep I sleep".
But today was a good day. And that makes me smile. Today was a VERY good day.

Hugs
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#16

Thanks for sharing a glimpse into your past, Sammie. Your account shows once again how many different roads lead to this gender confused world that we all find ourselves in. I guess we'll never really know why or how we got here. It's enough, I guess, just to realize that this is the world we were destined to inhabit, to make the best of it, and, if possible, accept it as a gift that many will never understand, much less experience.

Clara Smile
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#17

I lay in bed at 3 am last evening thinking about this - the big trauma in my upbringing was unlikely to be the 'cause' I feel of a Gender Identity Crisis. - nor is there any history of it in 'our genes'.


The one thing that was going through my mind last night, and now, is that I just have had enough of being 'The decisive one'.

I sometimes feel I would just like someone else to be the one 'in charge', I would just like to sit back and not be involved too much. There is, and always has been a huge demand on my physical and mental resources from work (until I retired from work per se) and currently due to a hugely difficult set of family situations.

So. my initial thoughts were that it would be great to hand this load over to someone else and this typically seemed to imply adopting a female rather than male mode. However, the more I thought about it last night, the more I realised that I was in fact only pandering to gender stereotypes.

One of my daughters suggests we have no control over what we are or where we go - our brains are just a massive chemical factory, the outcome of which is, by the nature of bio-chemistry, predisposed.

I hate to admit it, but I have a sneaking suspicion she might just be right ('cos the chemicals tell me so!!!!)

M x




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#18

(08-02-2014, 09:02 PM)Miranda-nata-est Wrote:  One of my daughters suggests we have no control over what we are or where we go - our brains are just a massive chemical factory, the outcome of which is, by the nature of bio-chemistry, predisposed.

I hate to admit it, but I have a sneaking suspicion she might just be right ('cos the chemicals tell me so!!!!)

M x

I believe that, Miranda, to a great extent. Certainly, our basic personality, sexuality, intelligence, physical attributes, and various inborn talents are determined at birth and sustained by complex chemistry of the body.

But, unlike most species, we humans also have the capacity to learn, to reason, and to make judgements and choices in life. We all need to take that as an opportunity to think and act in ways that compensate for our inherent weaknesses. Our minds are a tool that can be used to leverage our abilities and overcome our faults.

I know what you mean, though, about wanting to take a permanent vacation from all the responsibilities we face every day. Retirement? It's no safe harbor. It brings its own set of problems.

You're right again when you point out that gender is no excuse for doing what has to be done. Women have shown themselves every bit as capable as men in confronting the challenges of modern life. It's sad, though, that so many people, male, female, and trans, have to face it alone.

Clara Smile
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#19

Miranda, don't feel unusual in what you describe, sweetheart. Not at all. In my readings I have come across many accounts of Type A males, working in high stress jobs, who find relief in occasionally "dressing" as a means of stress relief. Years ago, I had some dealings through a job with an author named Nancy Friday, who wrote a fairly well known pop psychology book called My Mother, Myself. It was drawn from countless interviews with women, and dealt with accounts of female sexual fantasy and the relationships women have with their mothers. That brought her great success back in the 70's. She later brought out one dealing with men's fantasies (can't remember the name). There was an entire section dealing with exactly what you are describing, and which is apparently very common.
You are not alone, sweetheart. Smile
Hugs
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#20

I’m afraid that this is going to turn out more like a life story than a regular posting, far too long and probably very boring since its about both my own mother and my father’s mother, but I can’t face trying to rewrite it.

My paternal grandmother was the daughter and only child of a not always successful stockbroker, and her upbringing was rather a rags to riches and back again experience which left her with expensive tastes and a determination to avoid more ‘rags’ episodes. It has puzzled me how she came to marry my grandfather, whose father had a not particularly well paid job in India, leaving his son and two sisters, all born in India, to be brought up in England on a shoestring by a gaggle of aunts in suburban Manchester after their mother died of multiple schlerosis., supervised by a somewhat more prosperous uncle who looked after my grandfather’s education. He won a scholarship at Oxford, where he had a stellar career with a double first (two first class honours degrees) and ultimately a D.D. (Doctor of Divinity) degree. After taking holy orders he became a fellow and chaplain of his college and at the very early age of 29 was appointed principal of a well known theological college. Although clearly destined for an exalted ecclesiastical career, such a career is not notably well paid. I have no idea how he came to meet my grandmother, but at that age she seems to have been very beautiful. Her father had lost an arm to bone cancer, which had then spread and there is a suggestion that he speeded up the end of his life - who can blame him? My mother, whose relationship with her mother-in- law was terrible, told me that he was a professional gambler who committed suicide, which is clearly less than fair. He probably died penniless, so to his daughter even a clergyman with prospects may have looked the best catch available at the time. In any case they were married quite shortly after her father’s death, and in due course had two boys, my father and uncle.

His income always proved inadequate to sustain his wife’s expenditure, even when he became a suffragan bishop, and later bishop of an urban diocese. He felt compelled at one point, in order to protect himself in respect of the accounts that she ran up, to advertise that he would not be responsible for her debts. This was not as bad as it sounds in present day terms, and was quite common in those days when husbands wished to distance themselves from their wives spending habits, but it surely can have done nothing for the marriage. At some stage after the boys were in boarding school) she started an affair with a well-heeled doctor in a teaching hospital in London, in pursuit of which she entered the associated medical school and in due course qualified as a doctor, presumably financed by her lover. Divorce was not recognised by the Church of England, and I doubt she had any available grounds to divorce him. My father in due course went to Oxford where he shared a room with my mother’s twin brother (thus meeting my mother) and obtained a law degree, qualified as a lawyer in early 1938, and obtained a job with an industry organisation. My father had been very supportive of my grand father during his marital problems and was clearly upset by his mother’s conduct. My uncle had dropped out of medical school and taken a job in India, where he pursued a successful career there both before and after WWII and independence.

My grandfather acted as chaplain to the territorial (reservist) batallions of a local regiment of the British army, and in view of the increasing threat from Hitler my father had enlisted in one of these batallions. He married my mother in September 1938, and their honeymoon was cut short by the possibility that he would be called up. Thereafter they had something under a year of normal married life. In late August 1939 they went on holiday in Cornwall as the news became steadily more threatening. On August 25 they drove across Caradon Moor (a very spooky place dotted with the headworks of abandoned tin mines) to Liskeard with the probability that they would have to return to London the next day, and that was the night I was conceived. My mother told me that she dreamed that night of all the bad times to come. My father worked that week winding up his job and came home on Friday, threw down his brief case and took off his office clothes saying it would be a long time before he needed them again, and joined his regiment the next day, Saturday. Britain officially entered the war the following Monday, and that was the end of their normal married life together. They were able to spend odd days and some longer leaves together, except when he was serving in France and later Egypt. At some point my grandmother’s doctor friend had moved to the south coast, and on the outbreak of war my grandmother found it her patriotic duty to move down there to assist him. My father refused to visit her there. My mother moved out of London, initially to stay with an aunt but later rented a small house, although she moved around a lot to maintain contact with my father and her own mother. My father was unable to get leave over Christmas 1939, but got New Year 1940 instead. He met my mother in London and said ‘What’s that rash on your face?’ It was German measles, which is now known to be very dangerous to a fetus during the first two trimesters. The timing was such that I’m fairly certain that it is the reason I’m posting here now. I was born in London while my father was waiting evacuation from Dunkirk. Under wartime conditions my grandfather’s job was very arduous and stressful, and once the air raids commenced still more so. His cathedral was only feet away from the most intensively used railway junction in Britain, and his diocese in general was a prime target in bombing raids. His churches and his own lodgings were repeatedly bombed. Later, when a report of his death appeared in, surprisingly, the Houston Chronicle, he was labelled ‘Britains most bombed bishop’. (Later in the war he very narrowly escaped being killed by a doodlebug). I think he was also very lonely. He developed heart failure, and in 1941 he was’translated’ to a less urban but more senior diocese. My mother moved into the Bishop’s palace (one of the oldest continuously lived in houses in Britain, originally built in 1180) to stand in for his absent wife. My uncle, who had joined the army in India, was captured by the Japanese at the fall of Singapore, after which he became forced labour on the Burma - Siam railway (which he survived, living until 2009). My father, whom I last saw just before my second birthday, and of whom I have no surviving memories, was sent to Egypt via Capetown, and was killed at the battle of El Alamein in October 1942. My brother, although born before his death, never saw his father.

My mother was hit very hard indeed. One thing she did to help herself was to write a series a posthumous letters to my father, very much on a ‘Do you remember?’ theme . They petered off after a while but continued occasionally, the last being in 1959. We continued to live in the Bishop’s palace, which is the first house in which I remember living. I sometimes wonder whether the arrangement was as satisfactory from my grandfather’s point of view as it was from my mother’s, particularly since her eldest sister’s family and her twin brother’s family were also living in the same city while their husbands served in the army. Before the war, my grandfather had been tipped for further promotion, and when the Archbishop of Canterbury died in 1943 there were some ‘vetting’ visits, although he was probably ruled out by his broken health and marriage. One of the visitors was C.S.Lewis, a prominent churchman but remembered today for his children’s books which have now become so popular with the entertainment industry. My mother was concerned that he would be too high powered for her, but was delighted to find that he had a wonderful way with children and was a great storyteller. So I can say that I was personally told stories by C.S.Lewis himself, although unfortunately I can’t remember it. At the end of the war, my maternal grandmother provided the funds for my mother to buy a small (and somewhat bomb damaged) house near her. Three years later my mother wanted to move back to be near my grandfather (my mother’s father died when she was 17), and was devastated when my grandfather wrote to explain why it wouldn’t be a good idea. She put it down to the evil influence of his wife, which seems a bit improbable, and moved back anyway. His heart failure had returned, and he died within a few months. His wife was ‘unable to attend’ his funeral. He had never altered his will and left his entire estate, such as it was, to her. She fairly promptly married her doctor friend, and in turn left anything to him. She died only five years later. I always found her forbidding, her second husband less so - he did at least try to be friendly to me.

I think my mother began to see me to some extent as a kind of potential reincarnation of my father. She was a very conscientious single parent, sometimes oppressively so, and worked very hard to parent us and to participate in all our activities despite very straightened circumstances, and also allowed us a degree of freedom not available to kids today. At the same time our environment was very female dominated, and she sought to correct this by sending first me (at age 7) and later my brother to a boarding school for boys in which I think I first ran into my gender problems. Unfortunately she began to download parenting problems to the head master of the school. One of these was sex education. He did indeed speak to me in terms so obscure that it was years before it dawned on me what he had been talking about. When my mother suspected that I had been thieving, she referred the problem to him. Again his ‘talking to me’ was so obscure that I had no idea what he was talking about. His ‘little talks’ were punctuated with ‘you do understand what I am saying, don’t you’, to which the victim could only respond ‘Yes, Sir’. Another favourite line was ‘You are a disgrace to the memory of your dead father’. A cousin of mine at the school, subjected to similar treatment, considered it highly abusive. A more charitable view is that he simply didn’t know how to talk to kids. On the thieving issue, I had already self instructed or self- hypnotised myself that this was something that WOULD NOT DO, since when I have been neurotically honest my entire life. Similarly, I shocked myself when at nine years old I hit another boy in a flash of temper, and appalled, resolved that it was never to happen again, since when I have never been able to strike another being in anger. Later I gave up smoking on the same basis. I suppose I deserved it, but the thieving issue came back to haunt me since that head master passed on a warning to my next school, making me a prime suspect for any thieving that occurred . In trying to catch me my housemaster caught instead my then best friend, to the extreme shock and complete surprise of both myself and the housemaster, Of course I still remained guilty by association and found myself excluded from various activities in which I desperately wanted to be involved.

In the meanwhile I was allowed at home to do pretty much as I pleased within the means available, which gradually improved, provided that I allowed my mother to participate. I found that this participation, although it applied to things like rain soaked bicycle camping trips, did not extend to technological pursuits. On leaving school, I got the opportunity to take a voyage down the coast of West Africa as a cadet on a cargo ship. This was a revelation in all sorts of ways, not least the discovery that travel allowed escape from my personal problems, and from mothering. Two years later I initiated an overland trip driving to India and back, and found two companions. We didn’t quite make it to India, Lahore being our easterly limit, but we did travel by the northern route through Afghanistan and into the north west territories of Pakistan, truly the journey of a lifetime, and mother didn’t come too (although she would have liked to). The following year she persuaded me to take her on a similar trip by jeep to Turkey, but the following year I was able to make my escape from her increasing possessiveness with a friend and his fiancé. She made her own trip to Macedonia with the daughter of a friend.

Then the family of a neighbour of my mother’s was involved in a very bad car crash while bringing home their son and his family on a visit from South Africa, in two cars. The wife’s car was in a head on collision, and she, her son and her grand daughter were all killed, with the husband’s car arriving on the scene immediately afterwards. My mother became very much involved in helping the husband to put some of his life together again and in due course they married so that he could move in with her: I think the marriage was for respectability only. It took the pressure off me for a while, but as his health deteriorated she found looking after him increasingly confining and the posssessiveness increased again, reaching full force when he died. I had problems in my own life, my prospects in the very dynastic firm I was then working for did not look good, conditions in Britain were bad, and I did not know whether I would get a satisfactory renewal of my employment contract, so when a promising job opportunity turned up in Canada I took it, not without a lot of guilt about running away but with relief and hoping to make a fresh start. When the immigration formalities were complete I booked my flights and then discovered that my mother was intending to come to Canada too, to help me settle in and see that I was all right. At that point I gathered the courage to be brutal and insist that she didn’t come, that it was my life and I needed to live it my way. I did make frequent trips back to England. A few years before, my brother who had emigrated first to Australia and then after a year back in England to the United States, married a Jewish girl, to which my mother’s reaction was that at least she wasn’t a Catholic. However, the ‘in-law’ sparks flew quite soon. My mother had very strong feelings about the sanctity of marriage, and no woman that she hadn’t hand picked was good enough for her sons, so when my present wife, who is no longer a practicing Catholic, came to join me in Canada after commencing divorce proceedings against her first, abusive husband, came to join me in Canada, this did not go down well (apparently she considered a lapsed Catholic even worse than a believer) and we had another classic mother-in-law situation which smouldered with occasional outbreaks and truces for the next thirty years until she died. A further problem that developed as she got older was that more and more subjects became ‘no-go’ areas for discussion, until we were more or less confined to ‘Do you remember’ routines.


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