Hello all,

the researcher in me would like to consider this question: Is the amount of PM required to suppress "urges"/"inner voices"/whatever we call it, related to perinatal androgen?

Assuming the theory is correct, and 2D:4D digit ratio is dependent on perinatal androgen, and Gender Dysphoria is too, then it would be interesting to know if the dose required to reduce urges and libido was related to the 2D:4D ratio.

Admittedly the sample size here is too small to draw conclusions but it could be interesting all the same.

In my case, I "need" 3g/day and my 2D:4D is 1.0

Anyone else know theirs?

TTFN

B.x

Hi Bryony,

I know this is a popular game among TSs, but my 4th finger is quite a bit shorter than my 2nd on my right hand, and on my left hand, it's the opposite. Did my hands develop at different times then?

As to the suppression of urges and inner voices, I think that's related to PM (and hops too) increasing dopamine. Dopamine triggers the immediate reward system. So you feel more at ease immediately after taking it. That's hours before the effect of increased estrogens are noticeable.

Hi Bryony,

I know this is a popular game among TSs, but my 4th finger is quite a bit shorter than my 2nd on my right hand, and on my left hand, it's the opposite. Did my hands develop at different times then?

As to the suppression of urges and inner voices, I think that's related to PM (and hops too) increasing dopamine. Dopamine triggers the immediate reward system. So you feel more at ease immediately after taking it. That's hours before the effect of increased estrogens are noticeable.

Hi Isabelle,

I'm not qualified to talk about how a foetus develops, so I don't know whether one could develop hands at differeing rates for reasons of, say, nutrition or maternal stresses (clutching at straws). For fun, why not take the mean value?

As for the dopamine idea, it's interesting, and there are documented effects of oestrogen being a mild antidepressant. However, according to at least one gender specialist, a classic test for a TS brain is to supply estrogen, which reduces anxiety in a TS and induces it in a non-TS, and we had at least one person who visited for a while called Karen who did experience severe anxiety taking PM. Whether or not this was due to not-having a TS brain, of course, is unknown.

It's also a lot more than just a reward system reducing anxiety though. On 3g per day, I have no desire to cross-dress, look longingly at attractive women thinking "it's not fair", seek out TG porn, to "exercise my libido" in a singular fashion - which was 2/3 times a day - in fact libido is completely under control.

See http://www.avitale.com/FAQ.htm#category%204 section 15.

This has been my situation for the best part of two months, so I think it is more than an anti-depressant effect.

Ibid section 16: "Whatever the level of OCD, medication (usually an SSRI antidepressant) has not been shown to have any appreciable effect on reducing TS feelings. "

Finally, I don't get immediate relief, either. After dropping my dose back, I get the obsession back, and it takes a day or two at 3g/day to suppress it, so that probably kills the dopamine theory.

TTFN

B.

Hi Bryony,

I know this is a popular game among TSs, but my 4th finger is quite a bit shorter than my 2nd on my right hand, and on my left hand, it's the opposite. Did my hands develop at different times then?

Either you laid on your side in the womb, or you need to turn one hand over so they are BOTH facing palm upwards...



Beverley

Hi beverley and bryony,

Both hands were palm down. Palms up, it looks a little better, but not much

Karen got anxiety after withdrawal, not after starting PM. So according to Anne Vitale, she's a transsexual?

OK, if it takes days to calm down, it can't be dopamine. Dopamine works in the brain stem, a much older and more primary part of the brain than anything an SSRI can reach. I tried an SSRI for 3 years too, and it didn't make any difference in gender identity. I just wonder if anybody who could compare it with PM tried L-dopa, though.

Hi beverley and bryony,

Both hands were palm down. Palms up, it looks a little better, but not much

So what _are_ your measurements?

Karen got anxiety after withdrawal, not after starting PM. So according to Anne Vitale, she's a transsexual?

Well... I think that's a bit simplistic. I've just gone back and had a look.

1) she came off her testosterone
2) Over 5 days, she took 5g of PM, and only on the 5th day were any effects felt (e.g feeling 'full').

I think it's at least conceivable that she was still producing deoxymiroestrol metabolites whilst asleep and during that time went over a "cascade" point.

I've already established (to my satisfaction) that it takes time for the PM to build up to the point where it affects me positively. If that is true, it is reasonable to assume a similar "tipping point" for a non-TS to experience anxiety symptoms. It depends on whether the levels continued to build up for 15 hours after the last dose, for how long, and at what point anxiety sets in. Not enough information to say.

The anxiety she experienced upon wakening, to me, add weight to the hypothesis that she is _not_ a transexual, particularly since the anxiety proceeded to tail off over the next day or two - it certainly does not disprove it.

The "withdrawal symptom" hypothesis, would, I suppose, go along with the idea that Oestrogen is a natural antidepressant. Which I can't rule out.

Still, regardless of Karen's experience, I know that my experience matches the "Vitale" hypothesis.

But, if you are sceptical, that's fine too. Scientists should be sceptical, that's why the politicisation and the closing down of debate regarding many state-sponsored orthodoxies, e.g. "Climate Change" are a really bad thing (but that's another story).

I guess if you don't buy into the "PM has a calming effect at a certain dosage for me" theory, there's not much point getting your measurements to correlate, is there?

Maybe I need to start a thread for non-sceptics

TTFN

B.x

Long term satisfactory dose for me is 500mg/day, ratio 1.0. Not saying there is anything in it, simply contributing a data point.

I don't even have a data point, since I'm not using PM. 2D:4D is about 1.05 right, and between 0.95 and 1.00 left. That's if I put my elbows on the table, forearms straight up, looking at my palms. Any other position gives very different numbers. Still a skeptic

I don't even have a data point, since I'm not using PM. 2D:4D is about 1.05 right, and between 0.95 and 1.00 left.

Well, that averages out to 1.0 and whether you are on PM or not, I suspect that you are not a 'normal' football mad, team sports, beer swilling, sweaty armpit male (just guessing!).

So you have contributed a data point of sorts. Most of us here seem to have ratios at or above the female average.

Beverly

well must admit my single minded libido is down and well moderated to what it was was, then I look at Dargona and get all excited again

Julie