I'm interested in views on some thoughts, please, but first my reasoning behind what I'm asking
OK, they say Progesterone and Estrogens are antagonistic and shouldn't be taken together. I understand that and the basic reasons behind it.
This is very simplistic, but in a natural female cycle, there is a P peak a few days after the E peak, even though the E is still somewhat elevated, but dropping.
Both hormones then more or less level out until the next E peak.
As I've said before, I've been trying to roughly approximate the E cycle with my PM intake. Whether it actually does more than a level constant dose is hard to say, but something is working for me and, as they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" so i plan to carry on as I am in that regard.
However, I have been considering whether to add Progesterone cream to try to round out the triangular shape I'm developing.
My current programme is: A few days on 3000mg PM, followed by a couple of weeks at 2000mg, followed by the rest of the month on 1000mg, then back up to 3000mg, but my questions are:
1) When should I add the progesterone?
By reference to my simplistic scheme above, it ought to be probably at the end of the first week on 2000mg PM, but if my E level is that high, is it going to negate the P AND reduce the E level at the same time?
2) Would I do better to leave the P until the final week on 1000mg PM, but then that means my P level will still be relatively high when I whack in the 3000mg PM
3) Should I actually stop PM whilst applying Prog to avoid the conflict, and if so at what point in the cycle? We all talk about the need for a maintenance does of PM of 500 -1000mg PM, so that must be the equivalent of a normal female base level of E, so it would follow logically that at that level the E and P are in some sort of balance? which in turn suggests that there is no need to actually stop the PM.
All thoughts welcome
OK, they say Progesterone and Estrogens are antagonistic and shouldn't be taken together. I understand that and the basic reasons behind it.
This is very simplistic, but in a natural female cycle, there is a P peak a few days after the E peak, even though the E is still somewhat elevated, but dropping.
Both hormones then more or less level out until the next E peak.
As I've said before, I've been trying to roughly approximate the E cycle with my PM intake. Whether it actually does more than a level constant dose is hard to say, but something is working for me and, as they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" so i plan to carry on as I am in that regard.
However, I have been considering whether to add Progesterone cream to try to round out the triangular shape I'm developing.
My current programme is: A few days on 3000mg PM, followed by a couple of weeks at 2000mg, followed by the rest of the month on 1000mg, then back up to 3000mg, but my questions are:
1) When should I add the progesterone?
By reference to my simplistic scheme above, it ought to be probably at the end of the first week on 2000mg PM, but if my E level is that high, is it going to negate the P AND reduce the E level at the same time?
2) Would I do better to leave the P until the final week on 1000mg PM, but then that means my P level will still be relatively high when I whack in the 3000mg PM
3) Should I actually stop PM whilst applying Prog to avoid the conflict, and if so at what point in the cycle? We all talk about the need for a maintenance does of PM of 500 -1000mg PM, so that must be the equivalent of a normal female base level of E, so it would follow logically that at that level the E and P are in some sort of balance? which in turn suggests that there is no need to actually stop the PM.
All thoughts welcome
I can't answer all of your questions about combining it with pm, BUT I can tell you what I do know on using it alone.
I do know that for those not on nbe but using progesterone to help their hormones, if they still ovulate they are not supposed to use the progesterone until after ovulation, (days 15-28) as it can interfer with it. I found that when I was using it for hormones and used it any time other than what was reccomended in Dr. Lee's books, then my period would last about 10 days instead of 5 - 7 if i used it as directed.
I guess I forgot to write my point in that info. If I understand right, you would be taking your supplements in a increasing and decreasing cycle mimicing a female cycle, so that would be where the progesterone would be added for one. I'm not sure if that helps or not.
Mel
I do know that for those not on nbe but using progesterone to help their hormones, if they still ovulate they are not supposed to use the progesterone until after ovulation, (days 15-28) as it can interfer with it. I found that when I was using it for hormones and used it any time other than what was reccomended in Dr. Lee's books, then my period would last about 10 days instead of 5 - 7 if i used it as directed.
I guess I forgot to write my point in that info. If I understand right, you would be taking your supplements in a increasing and decreasing cycle mimicing a female cycle, so that would be where the progesterone would be added for one. I'm not sure if that helps or not.
Mel
This post was last modified: 13-10-2011, 09:17 PM by itsjust4fun91.
(13-10-2011, 07:19 PM)Pansy-Mae Wrote: 1) When should I add the progesterone?
By reference to my simplistic scheme above, it ought to be probably at the end of the first week on 2000mg PM, but if my E level is that high, is it going to negate the P AND reduce the E level at the same time?
2) Would I do better to leave the P until the final week on 1000mg PM, but then that means my P level will still be relatively high when I whack in the 3000mg PM
3) Should I actually stop PM whilst applying Prog to avoid the conflict, and if so at what point in the cycle? We all talk about the need for a maintenance does of PM of 500 -1000mg PM, so that must be the equivalent of a normal female base level of E, so it would follow logically that at that level the E and P are in some sort of balance? which in turn suggests that there is no need to actually stop the PM.
I am considering something similar - stopping PM for a week and using FG/RC as per the 'flat 2 fem' program for that week. If I recall correctly, they recommend SPx1 + RCx2 + FGx3 per 'dose' and the RC delivers a mix of phyto-progestrones and phyto-oestrogens.
My plan is week 1 - 3000mg PM
Weeks 2 and 3 - 2000mg PM
Week 4 SP/RC/FG twice a day (total 1000mg SP 2000mg RC 3600mg FG)
Week 5 (the odd days 29 - 31 of the month) PM 2000mg
Repeat....
At least periods are not a problem
Beverley
Hi Pansy Mae,
I think you have some flexibility, not having to worry about ovulation and period. Go by the symptoms. If you lower the progesterone while PM is still too high, you'll get PMT. I don't know if you're ready for that.
If PM is too low during the progesterone peak, you'll get clear thinking (like you never drank anything stronger than water all your life), and you'll be irritable. As long as it's manageable, I don't see a problem.
I think you have some flexibility, not having to worry about ovulation and period. Go by the symptoms. If you lower the progesterone while PM is still too high, you'll get PMT. I don't know if you're ready for that.
If PM is too low during the progesterone peak, you'll get clear thinking (like you never drank anything stronger than water all your life), and you'll be irritable. As long as it's manageable, I don't see a problem.
I'm also becoming more conscious of this effect, and wanting to look deeper into it. When i lowered PM from 2000mg daily (was doing this 3-4 months straight) to 1000mg with a ton of RC.. the label said 2-3 doses a day of this liquid extract and each does was 2000mg, so on any of the days I used RC that week i was taking between 4000-6000mg but I noticed a lot more growing pains than normal during this time. I've rebooted my program as an attempt to individually understand each herb, but I know that at some point I want either FG or RC with my PM for a few days to a week for that progesterone surge.
Keep us posted
Keep us posted
Here's a thought--when I stopped PM cold turkey, it took two weeks or more to feel like the effects had worn off and my testosterone was reasserting itself. Like Isabelle, I think there is something in PM that suppresses T or DHT or something along those lines.
In any case, stopping PM completely for a week and substituting RC or even using PC doesn't seem like enough time to let things go back to being "male." If instead you reduced to 500 or 100 mg/D for a week that would allow things to revert even less.
We are all pioneers here (at least in our minds
) and you already have fantastic results, so it sounds like it could only make things better. As we tell everyone else, you'll just have to try it and see.
In any case, stopping PM completely for a week and substituting RC or even using PC doesn't seem like enough time to let things go back to being "male." If instead you reduced to 500 or 100 mg/D for a week that would allow things to revert even less.
We are all pioneers here (at least in our minds
) and you already have fantastic results, so it sounds like it could only make things better. As we tell everyone else, you'll just have to try it and see.
(13-10-2011, 08:45 PM)beverley.rose Wrote: I am considering something similar - stopping PM for a week and using FG/RC as per the 'flat 2 fem' program for that week. If I recall correctly, they recommend SPx1 + RCx2 + FGx3 per 'dose' and the RC delivers a mix of phyto-progestrones and phyto-oestrogens.
My plan is week 1 - 3000mg PM
Weeks 2 and 3 - 2000mg PM
Week 4 SP/RC/FG twice a day (total 1000mg SP 2000mg RC 3600mg FG)
Week 5 (the odd days 29 - 31 of the month) PM 2000mg
Repeat....
I confess to not quite understanding why you are going to replace PM by the weaker FG for a week each month?
I've been hunting for my Flat-2-fem and can't find it anywhere, but I thought the recommended RC was about 1250mg per day ( on my old bottle I wrote "3 per day" and they are 430mg capsules) which is about right.
Thanks everyone, you're all saying pretty much what I was thinking, but I thought I'd ask opinions before finally deciding for myself.
Chrishoney: I was thinking something along those lines, because I agree it takes a couple of weeks for the PM to dissipate. Yep, 'suck it and see' is all I can do, and of course I'll report back.
One final question then...does anyone have any thoughts on Progesterone cream vs Red Clover capsules? I have both in stock
I'm kind of thinking about the cream to start off and then if that works, to use up the capsules when its gone, and then make decision about which to re-order, but again I'm open to thoughts.
Chrishoney: I was thinking something along those lines, because I agree it takes a couple of weeks for the PM to dissipate. Yep, 'suck it and see' is all I can do, and of course I'll report back.
One final question then...does anyone have any thoughts on Progesterone cream vs Red Clover capsules? I have both in stock
I'm kind of thinking about the cream to start off and then if that works, to use up the capsules when its gone, and then make decision about which to re-order, but again I'm open to thoughts.
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