Thanks lotus

Prolactin was 700 miu/l the last two tests and 400 back in march

Free t isnt tested, testosterone was 0.5 nmol/l which is approx 14 ng/dl last time i had it tested which was in august

SHBG again not tested, thyroid was fine as i had free T3, free T4 and TSH tested

The nhs wont agree to sublingual, the gic's range is also pretty conservative at 200-600 pmol/l or 54-163 pg/ml for estradiol, its oral tablets, gel or patches here, im tempted to wait until i get my referral for surgery then try and find someone stateside that will do informed consent via skype and prescribe me injections

Ok i will stay on the finasteride and also hope the coconut oil helps, i have lost a few lbs, not as much as before i went on holiday though

Thanks lotus

Prolactin was 700 miu/l the last two tests and 400 back in march

Free t isnt tested, testosterone was 0.5 nmol/l which is approx 14 ng/dl last time i had it tested which was in august

SHBG again not tested, thyroid was fine as i had free T3, free T4 and TSH tested

The nhs wont agree to sublingual, the gic's range is also pretty conservative at 200-600 pmol/l or 54-163 pg/ml for estradiol, its oral tablets, gel or patches here, im tempted to wait until i get my referral for surgery then try and find someone stateside that will do informed consent via skype and prescribe me injections

Ok i will stay on the finasteride and also hope the coconut oil helps, i have lost a few lbs, not as much as before i went on holiday though

The higher prolactin would make sense lowering estrogen, although stress can drive prolactin too. I was going suggest looking into vitex, (starting at 40 mg). Or raise progesterone by using PC (at night), sometimes I use DHEA (25 mg) at bedtime too.

Zinc (low dose) would also help too. Keep in mind hrt (oral contraceptives) are known for raising PRL, and so does breast stimulation, oragsm, anti-psychotics. But vitex helps to raise progesterone.......and D2.

Some light aerobics can help in reduce PRL. I'm sure you've heard of how some endo's only monitor prolactin levels (not estrogen), and by that their montoing for Hyperprolactinemia.

Bobie,

Here's some info I had recently came across on vitex.

I think the acne is from the effects of increased LH (lutenzing hormone), and possibly the fatty acids in Vitex (linoleic acid) which is a polyunsaturated omega-6 fatty acid. Omega 6 can cause inflammation, aka ACNE. You'll need to add an anti-inflammatory (omega 3). Chia seeds are a good source of omega 3's. Don't use fish oil, (increases free testosterone). I wouldn't advise flax seed either. Imo krill oil for omega 3, but it's expensive. Chia seeds are about $10.00 for 12oz. Vitex is ok at 200 to 500mg, below 200 might increase prolactin. One study showed that Vitex compares to fluoxetine (generic Prozac).

Hey, no big deal. You live you learn. (We've all been through this). I should've told u all this yesterday, sorry. Like I said, I didn't want to hijack your thread.

So if you go under 200, I heard something like 80mgs is the dosage that had girls grow likely BECAUSE it increases prolactin right? But do you think vitex still has hormone balancing effects at that dosage or does it only raise prolactin and render it useless? Txs L

The info (analysis) on Vitex is vast, interpreting all that info isn't for the faint of heart (lol) j/k......actually, it's no joke and is quite impressive.

In this study 20 patients out of 43 patients reported 37 adverse events (AE) on 20 mg dose

Efficacy of Vitex agnus castus L. extract Ze 440 in patients with pre-menstrual syndrome (PMS).
In conclusion, patients with PMS can be treated successfully with Vitex agnus-castus extract Ze 440, as indicated by clear improvement in the main effect parameter during treatment and the gradual return after cessation of treatment. The main response to treatment seems related to symptomatic relief rather than to the duration of the syndrome.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11129515


40mg dose was well tolerated in this study of 207 participants that decreased from 26.17+/-4.79 to 9.92+/-9.01 for the treatment group,

treatment for premenstrual syndrome with Vitex agnus castus: A prospective, randomized, multi-center placebo controlled study in China.
CONCLUSION:
Vitex agnus castus (VAC BNO 1095 corresponding to 40mg herbal drug) is a safe, well tolerated and effective drug of the treatment for Chinese women with the moderate to severe PMS.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?filters=&orig_db=PubMed&cmd=Search&term=63%2A%5Bvolume%5D%20AND%2099%5Bpage%5D%20AND%202009%5Bpdat%5D%20AND%20He%20Z%5Bauth%5D


This resouce (the best I've seen on VITEX) has 13 separate trail analysis:

Vitex agnus-castus Extracts for Female Reproductive Disorders: A Systematic Review of Clinical Trials
https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/html/10.1055/s-0032-1327831


Finally:

At low dose (120mg per day) of chasteberry, prolactin production is stimulated, while at higher dose (240-480mg per day) prolactin production is decreased.
http://www.diagnose-me.com/treatment/vitex-chasteberry.html

So.... Bottom line, it looks like it (vitex) could be partially beneficial as low as 20mg, but has some adverse effects. 40 mg reacts better than the 20mg dose, imo 200 mg is probably where I'd be, but......that's just my opinion (for what it's worth).

Thanks lotus you have given me a few things to think about, im due my next decapeptyl shot next week, i will probably wait a week or two then see if i can get some blood tests done, probably estradiol, testosterone, prolactin, LH and FSH, i have to be a bit careful what i ask for, i wont do anything differently until after i have my blood results, btw i thought progesterone was meant to also raise prolactin or is that only in high dose? i have a some 100mg utrogestan capsules that i had planned to start at some point

Thanks lotus you have given me a few things to think about, im due my next decapeptyl shot next week, i will probably wait a week or two then see if i can get some blood tests done, probably estradiol, testosterone, prolactin, LH and FSH, i have to be a bit careful what i ask for, i wont do anything differently until after i have my blood results, btw i thought progesterone was meant to also raise prolactin or is that only in high dose? i have a some 100mg utrogestan capsules that i had planned to start at some point

They (prolactin and progesterone) off-set each other, but I've seen a studies (or 2) when they've been introduced at the same time they synergistically upregulated estrogen, so go figure lol, good luck on trying to achieve that balance. ok Bobie, good luck, please let me know how it goes.

Vitex inhibits prolactin levels by binding to dopamine D2 receptors in the pituitary

Prolactin and dopamine: what is the connection? A review article.
Fitzgerald P1, Dinan TG.
Author information
Abstract
Dopamine (DA) holds a predominant role in the regulation of prolactin (PRL) secretion. Through a direct effect on anterior pituitary lactotrophs, DA inhibits the basally high-secretory tone of the cell. It accomplishes this by binding to D2 receptors expressed on the cell membrane of the lactotroph, activation of which results in a reduction of PRL exocytosis and gene expression by a variety of intracellular signalling mechanisms. The hypothalamic dopaminergic neurons, which provide DA to the anterior pituitary gland, are themselves regulated by feedback from PRL through a 'short-loop feedback mechanism'. A variety of other modulators of prolactin secretion act at the hypothalamic level by either disinhibition of the dopaminergic tone (e.g. serotonin, GABA, oestrogens and opioids) or by reinforcing it (e.g. substance P). All typical antipsychotic medications are associated with sustained hyperprolactinaemia due to their high affinity for the D2 receptor and their slow dissociation from the receptor once bound, but atypicals differ quite dramatically in their propensity to cause prolonged high prolactin levels. Of those atypicals that are associated with prolactin elevation, the main causative factor appears to be a higher peripheral-to-central dopamine receptor potency of either the parent drug or its active metabolite (e.g. risperidone, 9-hydroxy-risperidone and amisulpride). Antipsychotics that easily cross the blood-brain barrier and exhibit fast dissociation from the dopamine receptor once bound do not result in sustained hyperprolactinaemia.

I almost forgot, I have this one of kind study (2006?) on mtf's that proved progesterone and E2 promoted tissue growth, I'll put it up asap, (when I find it lol).

I almost forgot, I have this one of kind study (2006?) on mtf's that proved progesterone and E2 promoted tissue growth, I'll put it up asap, (when I find it lol).

The study was from 2000, not '06.

Short-term and long-term histologic effects of castration and estrogen treatment on breast tissue of 14 male-to-female transsexuals in comparison with two chemically castrated men.
Kanhai RC1, Hage JJ, van Diest PJ, Bloemena E, Mulder JW.
Author information
Abstract
The histologic changes induced in the mammary gland of male-to-female transsexuals have not yet been reported in the literature. We studied the histologic changes induced by chemical and surgical castration and estrogen therapy in the breasts of 14 such patients, with particular reference to acinar and lobular formation. To objectify the influence of cross-sex treatment, the histologic findings were compared with those in two men treated hormonally for prostate cancer. The slight increase in the plasma estrogen-to-androgen ratio seen in idiopathic gynecomastia usually does not induce acinar and lobular formation in the male breast. In men treated with nonprogestative antiandrogens for prostate cancer, only moderate acinar and lobular formation occurs. Only in male-to-female transsexuals in whom progestative chemical castration is combined with feminizing estrogen therapy will full acinar and lobular formation occur with hormonally stimulated nuclei and pseudolactational changes. Hence, combined progestative antiandrogens and estrogens are necessary for genetically male breast tissue to mimic the natural histology of the female breast. Orchidectomy does not contribute to this. Apocrine metaplasia may occur in breasts of male-to-female transsexuals, but so far, only four cases of breast cancer in male-to-female transsexuals have been documented.

Here's the full paper, or view the PDF as listed on the site.
http://journals.lww.com/ajsp/Fulltext/2000/01000/Short_Term_and_Long_Term_Histologic_Effects_of.9.aspx

Thanks lotus, the nhs's line is that those born genetically male do not have progesterone receptors in their breasts so the nhs do not prescribe progesterone, i will see if i can find the source again

Thanks lotus, the nhs's line is that those born genetically male do not have progesterone receptors in their breasts so the nhs do not prescribe progesterone, i will see if i can find the source again

Cell receptors, including hormone receptors, are special proteins found within and on the surface of certain cells throughout the body, including breast cells.
http://www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/diagnosis/hormone_status/understanding


When there's about 100,000 receptors per cell and over a billion cells throughout the body, it's hard to ignore the facts, progesterone has a response in male breasts. In other words it mediates growth. Progesterone creams (parabren free), avocado (natural source), red clover (slight progesterone value), vitex, (plant source) english walnut tree, wild yam to mention a few.


Bobie, are you allergic to nuts?.

Hormone receptors in male breast cancer.
Mercer RJ, Bryan RM, Bennett RC.
Abstract
Hormone receptor assays were performed on specimens of breast cancer from 19 male patients over a six year period. Ninety-four per cent were positive for oestrogen receptor, 93% for progesterone receptor and 57% for androgen receptor. Eight patients had hormonal treatment for advanced disease and five (62.5%) responded. Duration of response ranged from six months to 23 months. There appeared to be no clear relationship between hormone receptor status or quantitative receptor level and response to treatment in this small series. It is unlikely that oestrogen and progesterone receptors will be of value as discriminators because of their high incidence and it is suggested that further study of androgen receptor is indicated.
PMID: 6087783 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Should probably have said that i dont agree with the nhs, its two endo's in particular i believe that started it, no im not allergic to nuts, i eat a small palm full of almonds virtually every evening

Oh and here is the wording the nhs used

"No role for progesterone because contrary to some opinion it has no action on breast tissue (absence of receptors in developing breasts in born males) but may raise the risk of breast cancer."