[Koko]

Lotus,

I was wondering if Vitex and PM may be used in the same program? I was thinking of low dose PM during folli and vitex all throughout...?

Hi Koko,

I think it could work, I don't see any conflicts.

Great! Thanks.

[EvaMarie]

Just popped 200mg prometrium and Im trying to make sense of all this but I have a headache:

[Lotus]

Just popped 200mg prometrium and Im trying to make sense of all this but I have a headache:

Lol, that's ok, I need to get my eyes checked again , at first I thought you said I just pooped 200mg of prometrium.

Eva, how long you you been taking the new "bio identical stuff"?

[Lotus]

Lotus, could there be side effects from 'blocking' androgens over time? Or can you do this for longer periods? And thank you for the information

That's a great question Hannah,

Much of what you find is on androgen access, but there is something called androgen deprivation therapy or ADT for short, but even that is suggested in male prostrate cancer therapy.

From what I've seen, long term ADT in women could result in reduced libido, cognitive skills, skin, menstrual, bone and metabolism issues.

Over half the androgens in women come DHEA and DHEAS, but without Testoserone there wouldn't be estrogen, that's science for yeah.

[Lotus]

Lotus,

I was wondering if Vitex and PM may be used in the same program? I was thinking of low dose PM during folli and vitex all throughout...?

Hi Koko,

I think it could work, I don't see any conflicts.

Great! Thanks.

Anytime

[EvaMarie]

I bet, thats a lot to try to digest!!! Ive been taking prometrium since about a month after I started on HRT or about 10 1/2 months... Ive always cycled it 2-3 weeks on and 1-2 weeks off.... Im 2 days back on the P and they are getting fuller and sore all over again... When Im off P they seem to lose fullness and gain projection then round out on the P and the cycle keeps repeating... Its SLOW but they are getting there, I can sometimes even pass the pencil test now

[The First Aria]

Eva, just looked that drug up. WOW, I hope you are under constant care. Sounds like it can be scary.

[EvaMarie]

Its bio identical progesterone and my hormonal balance is no longer male but not quite cis female either... I doubt I have much more P than a cis woman who isnt pregnant... I do know there is a lot more E though

I do see my doc and have labs done regularly and I doubt he would prescribe my P if he thought it was dangerous

[Lotus]

Eva,

Progesterone restores estrogen receptor sensitivity to its original state. Progesterone also protects against the proliferate side of breast cancer in estrogen receptors. It also down regulates DHT through 5 alpha reductase. It has no feminzing effect. Progesterone in the presence of estrogen up-regulates side branching, and estrogen promotes the elongation of breasts. But......an odd spin is that progesterone down regulates it's own receptor, crazy huh?.

Eva, I'm wondering if you took progesterone at night, (which progesterone also promotes restful sleep) and I mean daily. Only in a smaller dose....I'm just thinking to restore the fullness/projection issue. They way I see pharma E releases and it's spikes throughout the day it would make sense to get that restorative phase from progesterone daily, plus....GH (growth hormone) is promoted by restful sleep. I dunno, it's what I would do.

But I'd also tell you need EFA's (essential fatty acids) to reduce the inflammatory response. And the body's inner inflammatory markers effect everything from high blood pressure, diabetes, the release of hormones through blood proteins....other bad stuff too.

Omega 3's is what I mean ....chia seeds are great.....krill oil too.

[-Clelia-]

That's a good find, Clelia. Thanks!

happy you appreciate, you're welcome

what's your opinion?, sorry.... I've listed like 10 issues lol.

yep, lot of stuff to read here ... i'm reading everything you reported.
I will answer later on.

The first thing that I want to say is...
I spent an afternoon trying to understand this:

In this study, we investigated whether development of the murine mammary gland could be altered by stimulating or suppressing androgen receptor (AR) signaling in vivo. Intact virgin female mice aged 5 wk (midpuberty) or 12 wk (postpuberty) were implanted with slow-release pellets containing either placebo, 5α-dihydrotestosterone (1.5 mg) or the AR antagonist flutamide (60 mg). Treatment with 5α-dihydrotestosterone from midpuberty to 12 wk of age-retarded ductal extension by 40% (P = 0.007), but treatment from 12-21 wk had no significant effect on gland morphology. In contrast, inhibition of AR signaling with flutamide from midpuberty had no effect on the mammary gland, but flutamide treatment from 12-21 wk increased ductal branching (P = 0.004) and proliferation (P = 0.03) of breast epithelial cells. The increased proliferation in flutamide-treated mice was not correlated with serum estradiol levels or estrogen receptor-α (ERα) expression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21846805

moreover: In control mice, the frequency and intensity of AR immunostaining in mammary epithelial cells was significantly increased in the 12- to 21-wk treatment group compared with the 5- to 12-wk group (P < 0.001). In contrast, no change in ERα occurred, resulting in a marked increase in the AR to ERα ratio from 0.56 (±0.12) to 1.47 (±0.10).
--> this means that receptor ERalfa is in the same quantity, in midpuberty and postpuberty. In contrast, AR receptor triple from middlepuberty to post-puberty, and that's why breast stop to grow in female (because AR receptors increase a lot).

Also we see from your favourite article that male rats depleted of AR receptors, develop full mammary gland.

So we see how important is AR signals in breast size (despite everything else).

What i do not understand up there underlined is:
why addiction of DHT didn't decrease gland morphology in adult mammary gland?
why affected just the midpuberty, retarding development?
maybe in the adult mammary gland, DHT in extra amount, is it converted in 3-diol? so it can neutralize is own androgenic effect? I don't know...maybe it's that back-door effect, but result is not estrogenic, otherwise mammary gland should have developed..

I could understand just flutamide action... in midpuberty should work less because of less presence of AR receptor. When AR receptors increase in post-puberty, the antagonism of them promote growing.

If we low DHT, we should mimic a bit flutamide action. And also, more testosterone will be converted in estradiol, as mentioned in your sign

Circulating 2-hydroxy and 16-α hydroxy estrone levels and risk of breast cancer among postmenopausal women

Thank you about this information, i read the abstract but i didn't get it... it talks about a ratio between two components, but i don't see what ratio. I will open the pdf... but not now... (no time left), btw, do you know if there is something that low this risk?

On another note....I've seen that EPA and DHA reduces the risk of breast cancer by as much as a 32% reduction, I don't know the dosage.

the article you posted says:
"The purpose of the WHEL Study was to assess whether a major increase in vegetable, fruit, and fiber intake and a decrease in dietary fat intake reduces the risk of recurrent and new primary breast cancer and all-cause mortality among women with previously treated early-stage breast cancer.
Women with higher intakes of EPA and DHA from food had an approximate 25% reduced risk of additional breast cancer events, compared with the lowest tertile of intake. Women with higher intakes of EPA and DHA from food had a dose-dependent reduced risk of all-cause mortality. EPA and DHA intake from fish oil supplements was not associated with breast cancer outcomes. The investigation indicates that marine fatty acids from food are associated with reduced risk of additional breast cancer events and all-cause mortality. J. Nutr. 141: 201–206, 2011."
maybe you can find the answer at your question in this table:

   

" Anti-androgenic activity of fatty acids." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19353546 (2009)

Great link, thank you so much, I can only think of two supplements that cam meet that demand........coconut oil and EPO-evening primrose oil.

and hemp seed oil

I've got to go now. I know that i still miss something, i'll come back next week, i'm off for the weekend. see you!