[Larana]

Thanks Lotus. I'll be proud when i'd have Big Buttock.

I haven't used my maca extract yet I've always had a girly butt I mark that up to my Puerto Rican side. Once I started using Pm spray They've gottwn bigger. Now i can no longer can wear mens pants comfortably. With a belt i have a loose bulge where it buckles in front and tighter around my butt n hips and thighs when wearing mens jeans. When wearing womens jeans my bottom rivals that if a curvy girl if my face looked more feminine id no longer pass as male. Ive never used lr only pm and sp extract but then again according to other peoples comments i have reacted to pm and sp really well hope.tjis helps

Oh this is great. I use Maca,Lr, and PM,perhaps i'll try PM spray than...
Anyway i don't have an idea why i can't see growing,perhaps am unpatient

[JMT]

I haven't used my maca extract yet I've always had a girly butt I mark that up to my Puerto Rican side. Once I started using Pm spray They've gottwn bigger. Now i can no longer can wear mens pants comfortably. With a belt i have a loose bulge where it buckles in front and tighter around my butt n hips and thighs when wearing mens jeans. When wearing womens jeans my bottom rivals that if a curvy girl if my face looked more feminine id no longer pass as male. Ive never used lr only pm and sp extract but then again according to other peoples comments i have reacted to pm and sp really well hope.tjis helps

Before I started NBE the only Men's jeans that worked for me were the Loose-fitting kind. But those don't work anymore. For the past couple of years I've switched to Women's jeans (mostly Lee Riders) and they fit great. (plus they're cheap and hold up well)

I also take PM and SP extract. I used to take 3g PM and 640mg SP extract / day (split into 2 doses). Growth has been really good for me on those, until a couple months ago it seemed to stall out. So I decided to try switching to spearmint (starting with 1 capsule for a few days before changing to 2). After a little over a week, I had a bad reaction to it, with a constant urge to pee that wouldn't go away. I stopped everything cold turkey, and the problem still didn't go away. After three days of that, I went to see the doctor (first time in about seven years). At the time, I couldn't be sure it was the spearmint, so they prescribed some antibiotics in case there was an infection. A couple days later the lab report came back, and sure enough, "flora" showed up on the urine test, though they chalked it up to a contaminated sample. It took another week or so before I felt normal.

So over the past few weeks I've ramped my PM back to 3g / day, but I've only been taking 160mg SP extract / day, and I can feel things growing well again. What a coaster ride. I won't be taking spearmint again. I picked up some Maca a long time ago, but I've gotten enough booty from the effects of PM that I haven't really felt a need to take it.

[Lotus]

So over the past few weeks I've ramped my PM back to 3g / day, but I've only been taking 160mg SP extract / day, and I can feel things growing well again. What a coaster ride. I won't be taking spearmint again. I picked up some Maca a long time ago, but I've gotten enough booty from the effects of PM that I haven't really felt a need to take it.

Hi JMT,

I'll agree, what a coaster ride it is. It stopped taking SP and spearmint all together for some time now, and for multiple reasons on both. SP gave me side effects that were hard to overcome, it smells (oily) harsh on the digestive/GI tract (now fun there) nagging headache/jaw and other things too. (And have anti-estrogenic properties)

Spearmint caused brittle (dry) hair, ingestion (lovely spearminty burps lol) dry skin, a few others too.

______________________________________

So something occurred to me, where do bio-males get there E From?.

We (bio-males) produce on average .02 mg of E daily (women produce T in about the same amount too.) where does it come from?. Yes exactly, from Testosterone!, and from free T to be more exact by way of Aromatase. Where it gets stored is in adipose tissue (fat), more on that below.

PM needs a metabolic activation, miro and Dexymiroestrol are activated in the liver and basically has the specific goal to find estrogens receptors. (Isabelle pointed out that miroestriol turns into Dexymiroestrol in the liver). Once activated by Dexymiroestrol the boob growth process (we hope) starts. This is where it gets tricky,

When miroestrol enters an estrogen receptor it modulates the effect on the receptor. PM supplements when the estrogenic activity is low and dilutes if the receptor estrogenic activity is high. Miroestrol has no effect on estrogen levels in the body as it only influences the estrogen receptor.

If you shut down T production that would just leave E to synthesize right?. I'd say wait not so fast. Turning off receptors is not such a good thing,


High serum levels of estrogen also trick the brain into thinking that enough testosterone is being produced, further slowing its natural production. This happens when estrogen saturates testosterone receptors in the hypothalamus region of the brain. The saturated hypothalamus then stops sending out a hormone to the pituitary gland to stimulate secretion of luteinizing hormone that the gonads require to produce testosterone. High estrogen can thus shut down the normal testicular production of testosterone. A further complication of excess estrogen is that it increases the body's production of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds free testosterone in the blood and makes it unavailable to cell receptor sites.



This is where the rubber meets the road, Q-by shutting down free T what happens?, A-Aromatase is compromised.

It would appear this is multiple level response, and introducing phytoestrogens or synthetic E is just one piece of it, although it should trigger cell growth, as I mentioned above is another process, below is one more.



One other nifty nugget- if you wanted activate a release of E what would you do?

START GRABBING SOME FAT, PEOPLE!!! Estrogen gets stored there......

And that's not starting grabbing fat people, (for you sarcastic ones, lol)


For BIO-MALES, and this is for BOOB GROWTH only, eliminating T presents a dilemma for receptors and Aromatase. (This is a hypothesis and not suggested in feminization) I offer this as merely that, a hypothesis and based on the fact of my own development, which I have obviously shared in my 'program and current pic threads' (btw still growing after stopping my program) currently using WP only.


_________________________

And these statements are of concern for all bio-males:


Men with low levels of testosterone are at greater risk of developing prostate cancer than men with higher testosterone levels.

Circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.”
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/nov2...ale_01.htm

(DHT should be the concern) free T can be of benefit. And nope, I haven't lost my mind, the science is there, it's repeated daily with 5 alpha-reductase and Aromatase (like I said, the science is there already).

[JMT]

Men with low levels of testosterone are at greater risk of developing prostate cancer than men with higher testosterone levels.

Circulating estradiol is a predictor of progression of carotid artery intima-media thickness in middle-aged men.”
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2008/nov2...ale_01.htm

(DHT should be the concern) free T can be of benefit. And nope, I haven't lost my mind, the science is there, it's repeated daily with 5 alpha-reductase and Aromatase (like I said, the science his there already).

I'm still a fan of SP, but it seems to me now I was taking more than I needed to. It's been discussed and is highly likely that age plays a big factor here as well, and the younger you are, the bigger your need to handle all that T and prevent the nasty effects when it turns to DHT. SP seems to help a lot with preventing that conversion, which leaves more T for aromatization to E. I started this journey right after turning 36, so my T levels were probably in the upper stratosphere somewhere, especially judging by large bald spot on my head and the amount of body hair I'm trying to get rid of.

As for the fat, I haven't been going out of my way to exercise regularly, other than walking the dog, but I'm also not trying to pack on the pounds, even if the fat would deposit in more womanly areas. I can see and feel steady progression, and that's more important to me than creating extra hurdles to deal with later on just for some short-term gains.

[GoneGirl]

Hi Lotus,
Interesting hypothesis. I think I follow the logic. Let's see...

Are you saying that it should not be necessary to take supplemental estrogen, e.g., PM? That by attacking DHT and promoting aromatase, enough free T will be converted to raise one's estrogen level high enough to grow boobs?

Clara

[Lotus]

Hi Lotus,
Interesting hypothesis. I think I follow the logic. Let's see...

Are you saying that it should not be necessary to take supplemental estrogen, e.g., PM? That by attacking DHT and promoting aromatase, enough free T will be converted to raise one's estrogen level high enough to grow boobs?

Clara

No I wish, we still need a form of E, be it herb or pharma, the rest (hopefully) should fall into place. It would seem the scale tips in favor for older males, and even more so for a fella with a higher BMI and sedentary life style. (Obviously not recommend).

I've also come across so many articles and research about the increased risk of estrogen levels and health risks in aging males it's just down right scary, (wouldn't mind seeing more of the risks shared quite honestly)

Like this one-Males with the high insulin resistance and with greater waist to hip ratios are at combined risk of prostate cancer is increased by 8.21 times.

Wouldn't be great to see an exercise thread for us older dudes? Hint hint

[Lotus]

One other interesting fact is the amount of daily estrogens we might notice thru diet and biologicals, (endocrine disruptors).

It's hard to say if we're getting to much causing a potential dominance. The solution is to closely monitor both.

Easy, right?.

[Lenneth]

Lotus, what AA do/did you use?

I'm personally looking for something more effective than SP/Spearmint.

SP works on the DHT for me but I have to take such high doses that it causes stomach problems and migraines, Spearmint helps and calms some leftover stomach issues I have from problems caused by a Antibiotic Overdose (via a DR). but I again have to take it (tea form) more often than I would prefer.

My body is oddly very efficient at creating DHT.

[Lotus]

Lotus, what AA do/did you use?

I'm personally looking for something more effective than SP/Spearmint.

SP works on the DHT for me but I have to take such high doses that it causes stomach problems and migraines, Spearmint helps and calms some leftover stomach issues I have from problems caused by a Antibiotic Overdose (via a DR). but I again have to take it (tea form) more often than I would prefer.

My body is oddly very efficient at creating DHT.

I think Abi had similar issues (something like a furry patch, I can't remember). If there was something out there that solves Aromatase/excess DHT I'd invest in that sucker, lol. Sure there a few options (spiro) ?? White peony, although the extract seems to be somewhat effective I don't think it overtakes that beast, maybe 40%, I dunno.

There's got to be a stronger WP or similar?? product out there that can keep Aromatase flipped on so to speak, just haven't found it yet.

[Lenneth]

Lotus, what AA do/did you use?

I'm personally looking for something more effective than SP/Spearmint.

SP works on the DHT for me but I have to take such high doses that it causes stomach problems and migraines, Spearmint helps and calms some leftover stomach issues I have from problems caused by a Antibiotic Overdose (via a DR). but I again have to take it (tea form) more often than I would prefer.

My body is oddly very efficient at creating DHT.

I think Abi had similar issues (something like a furry patch, I can't remember). If there was something out there that solves Aromatase/excess DHT I'd invest in that sucker, lol. Sure there a few options (spiro) ?? White peony, although the extract seems to be somewhat effective I don't think it overtakes that beast, maybe 40%, I dunno.

There's got to be a stronger WP or similar?? product out there that can keep Aromatase flipped on so to speak, just haven't found it yet.

I havn't tried WP, Cant find it Locally, but might try to order some online.

With me the DHT shows up in having Gorilla Level unwanted body hair
(Also Extremely Slow Breast Development)

It has lessened a bit but not as much as I would like (would prefer none )

I would get Electrolysis for the unwanted hair but the nearest place that does it is almost 300 miles away...
(also it doesn't solve the slow breast development)