Breast Growth For Genetic Males

I was drawn here mainly by xxd's informative posts regarding the pertinent steroidal pathways necessary to facilitate feminization. While actual studies are seriously lacking, I'm working on devising what I would, more or less, call a hardcore transformation regimen.

The premise-Just a few days ago I realized that I would really much rather prefer being a girl. Maybe not permanently, but given the unending barrage of pervasive and self-torturing thoughts on the matter, I've finally decided to give in. I'm 27- 165, 5'11" and played soccer and football throughout my adolescence (I've still got all the manly muscles plus some beer gut to work with). I know that this forum focuses mainly on breast growth, but in reality, the primary aesthetic function of taking hormones is a redistribution of fat content in the body-- so, whether you're main focus is on breast growth or not, the result will be general feminization to some degree or another. Ironically, I don't think I care for breast-growth, but I do want to rebuild my body (and mind really) in a femme-fashion, which will probably result in some amount of breast enlargement.

I am SORELY lacking in literature, as I only really just made the decision the other day, though I am a sciency type and have a pretty good understanding of metabolism and hormones and... well- stuff. So- I've set out to create a feminization plan. My goal is to rebuild my body so that it fits a feminine profile relative to fat distribution/content and muscle distribution/mass.

I think a non-suicidal target weight, for me, is 136 with a body fat-percent of around ~20%. Unfortunately, to achieve that body-fat ratio, I will have to go significantly under 136 and fatten up to it-- which is looking dangerous and stupid. I think if I shoot for 120- I should be able to survive (I'm being optimistic here) and get very good results.

Phase 1: Muscle reduction.
Safely achieving such drastic loss of weight shouldn't exceed ~10 pounds per month. if I'm to really achieve the sort of results I want, I'm going to have to go down the dark-road of metabolic self cannibalization. To do this, I'm looking at Steady-State cardio (marathon training) combined with intelligent caloric restriction (cutting- otherwise known as starving), and a butt-ton of yoga to prevent injury. This is more or less what Christian Bale did for his role in The Machinist . Obviously, I'm not going to be pushing it that far- I have no desire to be all bony >_>, I WANT HIPS. This sort of physical activity will result in an increase of DHEA, cortisol, and some other stuff-- which I need to figure out how to manage. DHT blockers and aromatase promoters should be a good thing in conjunction with DHEA, but I'm not really sure on that.....

Phase 2: Fattening.
A fortunate side-effect of caloric restriction is that our body switches into fat-storing mode. Going off said diet results in putting on a ton of weight very quickly in the form of fat (the primary reason why calorie restrictive diets don't work when you get off of them). Unfortunately, my VO2 rates will probably try to feed my starved muscles, resulting in a sudden bulk-up of muscle mass instead. To mitigate this, I'll need to eventually stop working out (completely) and maintain a caloric equilibrium for a period of time (probably several weeks) until my muscles normalize and new calories will go to fat instead of muscle (I'm considering tight-lacing, at this point, as it would reduce O2 intake slightly and might help hammer in the new figure). The beauty of all this is that herbal hormone supplementation should result in all this new fat going toward feminine areas- since the sex hormones play a large factor in where fat storage occurs.


I need to work out the specifics, but 9 months is probably a reasonable schedule for all of this. I need to factor in that I'm going to feel like shit 90% of the time and skip on workouts occasionally to ensure that I don't damage my starving muscles- and I also need a ramp-up period of just getting back in shape. I'll also need to regulate the rate at which I try to do this based upon my vitals and stuff- so I don't die. This is not exactly a heart-friendly set of activities... but it can be done safely.

The above techniques are all known to work in the way that I've described, but I don't have a strong grasp of how I should be utilizing herbal supplements and what sort of diet I should be rocking. I need to be meeting the necessary requirements, of course, but the types of food that I eat need to not conflict with whatever herbal supplementation I'm undergoing. Running a caloric deficit- it shouldn't matter what types of calories I'm taking in (carb-heavy most likely), but for fattening... I haven't quite decided yet, probably fat-heavy.

Beer is a good post-workout replenisher- helps avoid injury and has the bonus of providing hops and alcohol, both of which are estrogenic, but as I understand it- we have X estrogen receptors (of two types?) that only accept X amount of phytoestrogens (of potentially different types?). Meaning-- it's primarily quality over quantity. Aromatase promotion and androgen blocking doesn't appear to have any sort of restrictions (?). Hormone absorption works better with a fat-rich diet, so... I guess this is about where I need some advice. I'm in early pre-planning phases, but I was wondering if there was anyone out there who has tried a similar path of greatest stupidity / hardcore?

I'm not likely to be dissuaded from doing it like this- it can be done safely if done properly, I just want to know if there are any existing resources for an attempt like this- and maybe get a general idea of what herbals actually seem to work, especially under such circumstances. Most everything appears to offer a balance of bonus/malus relative to feminization, but PM and White Peony look pretty tried and true thus far...

Thoughts?! I would also appreciate recommendations for other forums/places to ask about this sort of thing. Frankly, I'm not sure if I'm in the right place, but I must start this journey... like, now >_>.

Thank you and hello!

Hello, Moniker, and welcome.

I have a lot of experience in controlled weight loss. I personally think your plan will be very difficult to follow because your body will vigorously fight you. You'll probably be very hungry, won't feel well, and find yourself having to combat the "munchies" constantly (especially after drinking beer).

Ten pounds a month is very aggressive (but possible, even in a non-dangerous way). To lose a pound every three days, and to make sure that it is fat and not muscle that you are losing, you must force your body into continual ketosis. By far the most effective way to do this is to eliminate the consumption of carbohydrates from your diet, ESPECIALLY refined sugars of any kind.

Go buy the Atkins book. It works. Once you find yourself in ketosis the fat will melt off at a high and sustained rate. To prevent yourself from losing too much muscle you should work out daily (weight training... upper body one day and lower the next). You will burn more fat doing HIIT (high intensity interval training) then long, slow cardio. And, believe it or not, you won't feel "crappy" all the time.

If you try to lose that much weight using just a calorie restricted diet but are still eating carbs, you will find your body will slow its metabolism down significantly and the weight will be much harder to lose. Plus, you will be hungry all the time. Add in the long slow cardio and you body will start storing more fat and burning more muscle (not what you want here), and you WILL feel crappy.

The hardest part about doing an extremely low-carb diet for an extended period is that you will find yourself really craving the missing carbohydrates. You won't really be hungry, however, since protein and fat do not induce an insulin response. You'll just get bored with the diet (been there, many times). Still, I have lost 40+ pounds in three months following this method, and got down to around 6% body fat.

If you are also taking PM while dieting, you should see the added benefit of what fat your body does store being in more feminine locations. When you reach you weight loss goal and increase calories (and carbs) to put it back on, the fat redistribution should be quite obvious. I suspect the PM will also prevent your muscles from being overly well-defined from the weight-training (more like a fit and healthy woman) than a ripped man. Keep in mind that losing that much weight will definitely show your muscles -- once you start putting on a feminine fat layer at the end the appearance should soften considerably. By the way, you will lose muscle over time on PM, it will just be a natural decrease due to change in your hormone balance and not because of an unhealthy catabolic state.

Plus, don't discount the distinct possibly that your goals will change once you start taking PM. Mine did, in a big way. I was originally planning to do something very similar to your stated plan (that is, lose considerable fat and then attempt to regain it while taking PM to optimize feminization). After a few weeks on PM the overwhelming desire to feminize disappeared to a large extent.

Good luck, and keep posting!

Misty

Quote:I have a lot of experience in controlled weight loss. I personally think your plan will be very difficult to follow because your body will vigorously fight you. You'll probably be very hungry, won't feel well, and find yourself having to combat the "munchies" constantly (especially after drinking beer).

I've done some hardcore training before. Oddly- Beer destroys my appetite, which is one of the reasons why it's specifically appealing- I don't know if it would conflict with other herbals though.

Quote: To lose a pound every three days, and to make sure that it is fat and not muscle that you are losing, you must force your body into continual ketosis.

Actually- that's the entire point. I'm trying to reduce my muscle mass that I acquired from weight-lifting long ago. If I reduce muscle mass I would also be reducing my overall metabolism, but that's something I would expect.

Quote:I suspect the PM will also prevent your muscles from being overly well-defined from the weight-training (more like a fit and healthy woman) than a ripped man

Oh! Definitely NO weight-training. The trick in steady-state cardio is to literally just run until your body eats itself. It's actually NOT a good way to bun fat, it primarily destroys your muscles (which is what I want). I don't even really want to go for a "fit" woman look- which is why I want to severely undershoot my target weight before fattening up.

Quote:After a few weeks on PM the overwhelming desire to feminize disappeared to a large extent.

I was wondering about that! It'll probably kill my little project, but it's nice to know that PM works. Are there any good resources for strong synergies with PM specifically?

Hello Moniker.

Welcome to the board.

I think Misty makes a very good point about your goals may change once you start taking pm. I think this is a fairly common response for males taking pm.

In regards to achieving a feminine fat redistribution pattern, I've been able to achieve this without making any significant changes to my weight. I've certainly noticed some fat redistribution to my hips and bum while being on pm. My thoughts on this is you may not have to start at square one for achieving a feminine body shape. Rather, you may be able to succeed using the process of burning and then gaining fat in more desirable places.

Here's a thread about fat redistribution that may be of interest to you:

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=12684

(03-03-2013, 06:09 PM)moniker Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:After a few weeks on PM the overwhelming desire to feminize disappeared to a large extent.

I was wondering about that! It'll probably kill my little project, but it's nice to know that PM works. Are there any good resources for strong synergies with PM specifically?

Calcium supplements is one that comes to mind. On the Ainterol Herbs bottles that contain pm it says taking a calcium enriched liquid or tablet may enhance the efficiency of pm. It also recommends against taking alcohol with pm, so I'm not sure how that would work with you plan to drink beer to suppress your appetite and for the estrogenic effects.

I also use PABA which helps with slowing the breakdown of hormones in the body.

(03-03-2013, 06:09 PM)moniker Wrote: [ -> ]Actually- that's the entire point. I'm trying to reduce my muscle mass that I acquired from weight-lifting long ago. If I reduce muscle mass I would also be reducing my overall metabolism, but that's something I would expect.

I certainly understand what you're trying to do, I just feel that it is a very hard and unhealthy way to do it. When your body is in a catabolic state it eats ALL muscle, including your heart muscle. Do you really want to do that? If you're really after fat redistribution, you can do that best by burning off all "excess" fat and then intentionally putting it back on while taking PM (so it accumulates on the hips, thighs, and breasts). Others have succeeded that way, as Flamesabers pointed out.

The weight training helps by keeping your metabolism up so the fat burns faster. It doesn't have to be "body building" weight training, just adequate resistance training to keep the muscles healthy and burning fat. Don't push to the point of micro-tearing (which is what causes muscles to increase in size).

The PM definitely will cause your muscles to decrease regardless of how much weight training you do. They will just decrease more gradually and in a healthy, non-catabolic manner.

Quote: The trick in steady-state cardio is to literally just run until your body eats itself.

Yes, that's the essence of a catabolic state. Ugh! It even sounds bad!

These are my opinions, of course, and there are a lot of people who differ. Only you can determine what's right for yourself. Good luck, though, and do listen to what your body tells you, especially any warning signs that may indicate something is wrong.

Best,

Misty

I would most likely fluctuate done and up along the median. I'm thinking it would probably be safer to steady-state down to a reasonable range and then stop to just do pure cutting down to the remainder. I know it's stupid-- but I think I can figure out a way to do it in a safe manner. Many people have done it for various reasons- I just don't know if anyone has done it for this particular reason.


By about what percent do you think PM cuts your muscle down? If I factor that in I imagine I could reach the same goals in a much safer way.

(04-03-2013, 12:59 AM)moniker Wrote: [ -> ]By about what percent do you think PM cuts your muscle down? If I factor that in I imagine I could reach the same goals in a much safer way.

Abidrew may chime in (she's much more up on the science behind PM). I do know that taking PM is very similar to taking estrogen and has significant feminizing effects on a male body. The real key to reducing muscle will be the extent to which PM acts as an anti-androgen and reduces your testosterone.

Misty

"She" may chime in. (It can be hard to tell the players without a program).

(04-03-2013, 02:22 AM)PattiJT Wrote: [ -> ]"She" may chime in. (It can be hard to tell the players without a program).

Patti,

Thanks for catching my faux pax! It's fixed. My apologies, Abi!

Misty

(04-03-2013, 03:23 AM)Misty0732 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-03-2013, 02:22 AM)PattiJT Wrote: [ -> ]"She" may chime in. (It can be hard to tell the players without a program).

Patti,

Thanks for catching my faux pax! It's fixed. My apologies, Abi!

Misty

LOL. It's ok. I didn't even see it till now anyways, after being fixed.

Honestly, I don't know. I know that certain constituents of PM act as anti-androgens, and that anti-androgens will, over time, cause SOME reduction of muscle mass.

But I have no idea just how effective it is or isn't.

As an estrogen, it's effects will be nil. Estrogen has no significant effect upon muscle mass.

Personally, I've never had much muscle mass to begin with, anyways. So I certainly can't speak from personal experience.

And as for the science... Even less research has been done on the anti-androgenic properties of PM than has been done on the estrogenic properties. Basically, they know it's there. They even have an idea of what's likely responsible - beta-sitosterone. But they don't really know it's potency or if there might not be other anti-androgens involved.