31-07-2011, 06:30 PM
The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible?
April 6 2007 at 3:42 PM Fennel Fairy (no login)
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Progesterone helps the body use the estrogens better so I guess progesterone is a good thing to add in any NBE formula, either as the real progesterone or as in Wild Yam cream. Saw Palmetto being an anti-androgen is also helpful for some who might have too much testosterone in their system. But what about the "estrogenic" herbs? What's the ideal combination? There are so many!
On websites that sell Pueraria Mirifica pills, I have read that one is not supposed to take other herbs together with the PM. This is because the phytoestrogens in PM are so much stronger than other plant estrogens and therefore the use of any additional herbs would "dilute" the formula and weaken the effect of the PM.
So other, weaker phytoestrogens would attach themselves to places where the miroestrol molecules from the Pueraria would have placed themselves, thereby weakening the effect of the PM. If that is how it works, then that could be applied on other NBE herbs too.
In that case, mixing fenugreek, alfalfa and soy would be a very bad idea for instance. The weak plant estrogen found in alfalfa and soy would then take up space that could be better used by the more potent fenugreek and make it less effective. If this would be the case, the ideal NBE formula would consist of a combination of EITHER only a few, almost equally strong estrogenic herbs like fenugreek and red clover OR a combo of many weak estrogenic herbs.
It seems kind of logical...
So perhaps Red Clover, Fenugreek, Wild Yam Cream and Saw Palmetto would be a fast growing formula?
Or Soy, alfalfa, pomegranade and a dozen other weak ones taken with Wild Yam cream and Saw Palmetto?
What do you guys think of this theory?
Author Reply
takkie
(no login) I'm even more confused about this April 6 2007, 4:29 PM
I'm spending a lot of time trying to research this.
What is so confusing to me is that what may work well for women may not apply to men. What you say about varying strengths for phyto-estrogenic effect makes sense to me with my meager understanding of hormonal effect.
Most, or a lot of foods have estrogenic effects, we cannot consume a single food diet. What about effects of foods/herbs/fruits/beans/roots we have no knowledge of?
I believe that the endocrine system relies on a feedback system. If you raise levels artificially the system tries to restore balance. Perhaps there are experts out there that may explain things?
More confused about what I'm attempting than ever before!!!
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Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 6 2007, 4:34 PM
I love to confuse people!
I guess it's because I am a woman. We are confusing by nature.
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waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 6 2007, 8:55 PM
Good question. Probably what to choose would be on whether there were any imbalances in the individual in the first place.
For Women:
Those with no known imbalance could probably handle the first example (strong phytoestrogens)
Those with estrogen dominance would do much better with the second version (lots of weak phytoestrogens)
For Guys:
First example - hit the body with estrogen and lower the testosterone - but by all means use the progesterone cream to protect from unbound estrogen. Just like breast tissue will grow when given ideal situation - male or female, too much estrogen can enhance other cell growth of a malignant kind. Progesterone definitely has a protective effect.
just my 2 cents
waxingmoon
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Lisa
(Login lilmama40) Yes!!! April 6 2007, 11:41 PM
You hit the nail right on the head Fennel. I think I was taking too much at first and even though I grew, I think it held me back some. When I got lazy and was only taking fenugreek, red clover, nettle root, and wild yam cream (along with the soy oil rubs) I started to grow even more! That's what I'm on now and it's working well. I also take flax oil. My doses aren't super high of anything.
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TB
(no login) Too much testosterone April 7 2007, 2:59 AM
Too much testosterone in males is converted to estrogen. That is why somebody builders who take too much testosterone get gynocomastia. Using progesterone can guide the estrogen in men to where you may want it (if your seeking NBE) In males progesterone can help shrink the prostate gland, which is a good thing. I believe that is why I being on testosterone replacement therapy am still having breast growth as the rubbing of the progesterone on my breasts is "locking"the excess estrogen in place. Botton line is that you can maintain the testosterone at a proper level and utilize what excess estrogen/phytoestrogen in your system by using progesterone cream.
Edit Message Delete Message
Blu-jay
(no login) Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 7 2007, 7:35 AM
I believe in keeping it simple, 1 to 3 stronger herbs and an antiandrogen to control testosterone. Remember! Sometimes less is more.
Edit Message Delete Message
anan man
(no login) Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 7 2007, 3:08 PM
So if I understand right:
Progesterone is a good thing for men. Rubbing Progesterone on the breast area once a day directs any unused estrogen to the breast. Saw Palmetto is a weak androgen that blocks excess testosterone in the system and lets your natural estrogen become more dominant. Taking Fenugreek or Dong Quai are phytoestrogens that add “safe” estrogens to the system. Thus the Progesterone rubbed areas attract the estrogen from the herbs and grow NBE.
Now, I hear about steroids or forms of estrogen that have chemical names to them like Chlorotrianisene (not herb names) and these are products we want to stay away from.
Also using SP, F, DQ at low doses (under 500 mg) along with Progesterone Cream will not cause breast or prostate cells to multiply and become malignant. Perhaps high doses are bad. The other thing is how long can PC and these low doses be used safely. I can’t find anything on that.
April 6 2007 at 3:42 PM Fennel Fairy (no login)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Progesterone helps the body use the estrogens better so I guess progesterone is a good thing to add in any NBE formula, either as the real progesterone or as in Wild Yam cream. Saw Palmetto being an anti-androgen is also helpful for some who might have too much testosterone in their system. But what about the "estrogenic" herbs? What's the ideal combination? There are so many!
On websites that sell Pueraria Mirifica pills, I have read that one is not supposed to take other herbs together with the PM. This is because the phytoestrogens in PM are so much stronger than other plant estrogens and therefore the use of any additional herbs would "dilute" the formula and weaken the effect of the PM.
So other, weaker phytoestrogens would attach themselves to places where the miroestrol molecules from the Pueraria would have placed themselves, thereby weakening the effect of the PM. If that is how it works, then that could be applied on other NBE herbs too.
In that case, mixing fenugreek, alfalfa and soy would be a very bad idea for instance. The weak plant estrogen found in alfalfa and soy would then take up space that could be better used by the more potent fenugreek and make it less effective. If this would be the case, the ideal NBE formula would consist of a combination of EITHER only a few, almost equally strong estrogenic herbs like fenugreek and red clover OR a combo of many weak estrogenic herbs.
It seems kind of logical...
So perhaps Red Clover, Fenugreek, Wild Yam Cream and Saw Palmetto would be a fast growing formula?
Or Soy, alfalfa, pomegranade and a dozen other weak ones taken with Wild Yam cream and Saw Palmetto?
What do you guys think of this theory?
Author Reply
takkie
(no login) I'm even more confused about this April 6 2007, 4:29 PM
I'm spending a lot of time trying to research this.
What is so confusing to me is that what may work well for women may not apply to men. What you say about varying strengths for phyto-estrogenic effect makes sense to me with my meager understanding of hormonal effect.
Most, or a lot of foods have estrogenic effects, we cannot consume a single food diet. What about effects of foods/herbs/fruits/beans/roots we have no knowledge of?
I believe that the endocrine system relies on a feedback system. If you raise levels artificially the system tries to restore balance. Perhaps there are experts out there that may explain things?
More confused about what I'm attempting than ever before!!!
Edit Message Delete Message
Fennel Fairy
(no login) Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 6 2007, 4:34 PM
I love to confuse people!
I guess it's because I am a woman. We are confusing by nature.
Edit Message Delete Message
waxingmoon
(Login waxingmoon)
SENIOR MEMBER Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 6 2007, 8:55 PM
Good question. Probably what to choose would be on whether there were any imbalances in the individual in the first place.
For Women:
Those with no known imbalance could probably handle the first example (strong phytoestrogens)
Those with estrogen dominance would do much better with the second version (lots of weak phytoestrogens)
For Guys:
First example - hit the body with estrogen and lower the testosterone - but by all means use the progesterone cream to protect from unbound estrogen. Just like breast tissue will grow when given ideal situation - male or female, too much estrogen can enhance other cell growth of a malignant kind. Progesterone definitely has a protective effect.
just my 2 cents
waxingmoon
Edit Message Delete Message
Lisa
(Login lilmama40) Yes!!! April 6 2007, 11:41 PM
You hit the nail right on the head Fennel. I think I was taking too much at first and even though I grew, I think it held me back some. When I got lazy and was only taking fenugreek, red clover, nettle root, and wild yam cream (along with the soy oil rubs) I started to grow even more! That's what I'm on now and it's working well. I also take flax oil. My doses aren't super high of anything.
Edit Message Delete Message
TB
(no login) Too much testosterone April 7 2007, 2:59 AM
Too much testosterone in males is converted to estrogen. That is why somebody builders who take too much testosterone get gynocomastia. Using progesterone can guide the estrogen in men to where you may want it (if your seeking NBE) In males progesterone can help shrink the prostate gland, which is a good thing. I believe that is why I being on testosterone replacement therapy am still having breast growth as the rubbing of the progesterone on my breasts is "locking"the excess estrogen in place. Botton line is that you can maintain the testosterone at a proper level and utilize what excess estrogen/phytoestrogen in your system by using progesterone cream.
Edit Message Delete Message
Blu-jay
(no login) Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 7 2007, 7:35 AM
I believe in keeping it simple, 1 to 3 stronger herbs and an antiandrogen to control testosterone. Remember! Sometimes less is more.
Edit Message Delete Message
anan man
(no login) Re: The perfect mixture of herbs? Or the worst possible? April 7 2007, 3:08 PM
So if I understand right:
Progesterone is a good thing for men. Rubbing Progesterone on the breast area once a day directs any unused estrogen to the breast. Saw Palmetto is a weak androgen that blocks excess testosterone in the system and lets your natural estrogen become more dominant. Taking Fenugreek or Dong Quai are phytoestrogens that add “safe” estrogens to the system. Thus the Progesterone rubbed areas attract the estrogen from the herbs and grow NBE.
Now, I hear about steroids or forms of estrogen that have chemical names to them like Chlorotrianisene (not herb names) and these are products we want to stay away from.
Also using SP, F, DQ at low doses (under 500 mg) along with Progesterone Cream will not cause breast or prostate cells to multiply and become malignant. Perhaps high doses are bad. The other thing is how long can PC and these low doses be used safely. I can’t find anything on that.