[thegirl1951]

Oh wow, that is scary..so should I drop down to 6mg? Is that a safer amount?

Talk to your doctors..... this is not a medical advice website.  There are risks from taking ANY medications or herbs. Your doctor needs to know all of the meds and herbs you are taking so that they can make informed decisions. You can talk to a pharmacist also. They typically know more about drug/herb interactions and side effects than the doctors. You can also do a search of the different drugs you take and check their interactions.
You are ultimately responsible for your own health; not the doctor. My mother was put into a hospital by a careless doctor and four additional doctors who treated her tried to kill her. The only reason she did not die was I was her medical advocate and I knew enough and researched her medical issues to correct the doctor's actions. Many doctors do not like medical advocates who are knowledgeable; it gets in the way of their egos. I fortunately had 2 doctors in the family to help me keep my mother alive a little while longer. The original careless doctor's mistake (wrong medication that lead to a stroke that was caused by a blood clot) is what killed her. My comments above are not original. Any medical website will have a version of the warnings I list.

[Dianna1395]

< ... >
You are ultimately responsible for your own health; not the doctor.  My mother was put into a hospital by a careless doctor and four additional doctors who treated her tried to kill her.  The only reason she did not die was I was her medical advocate and I knew enough and researched her medical issues to correct the doctor's actions.  Many doctors do not like medical advocates who are knowledgeable; it gets in the way of their egos. I fortunately had 2 doctors in the family to help me keep my mother alive a little while longer.  The original careless doctor's mistake (wrong medication that lead to a stroke that was caused by a blood clot) is what killed her. My comments above are not original. Any medical website will have a version of the warnings I list.

THIS.  emphasis mine.
My sympathies on your mother, The Girl, my father had similar enough: Doctor ignored he was on blood thinners, injected more 9now 200% max dose) - and he basically bled into his lungs and drowned in his own blood.
Got to love doctors like that...

[Moobdood]

So I messaged my endo, he had said that they had me on 8 because my E levels were not too high to worry about lowering down to 6mg, and if they were too high they would lower it. But I also think its maybe because I have a bad habit of sometimes forgetting to take my meds a day here and a day there and therefore may be why my E levels are a bit low? Anyway I do get my bloodwork checked ever 6 months anyway so I'm not too worried and I can drop down to 6mg if its too high. So..I am thinking of taking Fenugreek in addition to my E and Progesterone and Milk Thistle. I had thought about possibly Pueria Mirifica too but I dunno if Fenugreek and PM would conteract each other. I am aware of the possibility of the phytoestrogens using my estrogen receptors instead of Estradiol but I am wondering if maybe Fenugreek and/or PM may have a slightly different effect, worth a shot? Not sure on the dosages for taking Fenugreek tho?

[Manue]

My Estradiol level was 112pg/ml
my Testosterone level was 13ng/dl

and interesting because i have been told PM and BO would fight for E receptors in the body? But i know cis females have been taking PM for hundreds of years to increase breast growth?

And yes i sent a message to my endocrinologist to double check, just waiting on his reply but i have been on 8mg of E for at least like 3-4 years by this point?

Sorry for the late reply,

My experience has been incredibly different from the word of mouth about PM. I haven't found any tangible information about this other than the following statement in research:

It was reported that PM phytoestrogens at high doses could effectively outcompete 17 β-estradiol binding to ERα in MCF-7 cells.

To me, I don't see this as being problematic to take PM if your intake of E2 are considerable. I even take less than you.

Are you taking your E2 sublingually? This is something you could consider to raise your E2 level unless you have a medical condition that proscribes it.

[Lotus]

Manue,

this is really a bad idea, this study found that Donyu Rats using PM (the study you quoted from) reported PM causes mammary carcinogenesis...aka cancer. If moobdood simply spoke with her doctor they would advise against using a phytoestrogens with bioidentical estrogen...ever. And I continually address using this approach as it competes with estrogen receptors. Bioidentical estrogens bind more correctly to estrogen receptors than do phytoestrogens, I know some science reports otherwise, but as someone who's been on nbe and hrt the effects of hrt are more dramatic on hrt than nbe...it just takes more time, folks have to be patient. Plus, when folks start adding more than one estrogen source to a program you run into over expression of estrogen receptors causing a disruption of normal estrogen signaling to the nucleus, meaning stalling your growth. It'll take weeks (maybe months to reset the estrogen receptors). 

Pueraria mirifica Exerts Estrogenic Effects in the Mammary Gland and Uterus and Promotes Mammary Carcinogenesis in Donryu Rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5127102/

[Manue]

Manue,

this is really a bad idea, this study found that Donyu Rats using PM (the study you quoted from) reported PM causes mammary carcinogenesis...aka cancer. If moobdood simply spoke with her doctor they would advise against using a phytoestrogens with bioidentical estrogen...ever. And I continually address using this approach as it competes with estrogen receptors. Bioidentical estrogens bind more correctly to estrogen receptors than do phytoestrogens, I know some science reports otherwise, but as someone who's been on nbe and hrt the effects of hrt are more dramatic on hrt than nbe...it just takes more time, folks have to be patient. Plus, when folks start adding more than one estrogen source to a program you run into over expression of estrogen receptors causing a disruption of normal estrogen signaling to the nucleus, meaning stalling your growth. It'll take weeks (maybe months to reset the estrogen receptors). 

Pueraria mirifica Exerts Estrogenic Effects in the Mammary Gland and Uterus and Promotes Mammary Carcinogenesis in Donryu Rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5127102/

Hello Lotus,

Didn't they use insane amounts of PM to arrive to that statement? To me, the title is very misleading concerning human use of PM. The citation about outcompeting comes from research that has paywall. Do you know any other source on the topic?

I haven't recommended Moobdood to take PM, I was simply addressing their concern on the matter based on my own experience. What I recommended was to look into taking E2 sublingually to get higher levels as it does seem to be their aim. Their judgement.

I don't know if you read my diverse threads on the matter, but in my last sample, I hit 2173 pmol/L E2 from only 3x2mg E2 tablets. It is way too high when the target is 1300 pmol/L. I even had to take P5P to tune down nausea. I was taking 500mg PM and 600mg WP the night before and also about 2000mg Alfalfa in the morning of the sampling. If phytos are an issue, do you have another explanation for this?

Is there somewhere I could read about diverse sources of E would run into over expression of the E receptors causing a disruption of normal estrogen signaling to the nucleus?

Regards

[Lotus]

Hi Manue, I'm on it. 

[Lotus]

Hi Manue and Moobdood,

 The thing about lab testing is making sure your blood levels of E2 are at their lowest levels prior to resting. If you're scheduled to take meds the day before lab draws (collection) wait till after the lab work. This is what's called measuring at trough levels. Measuring at trough gives us a clear sense of where hormones are at versus a spike right afterwards taking meds. If you're levels are still high there's some plausible explanations, for instance: You're sensitive to estradiol and PM…to determine this it would require screening your DNA using the P450 family of enzymes, or genetic testing ruling out klinefelter's syndrome. I went through the same thing, I could post more info in your thread if you'd like?

Moobdood you should consider going to subcutaneous injections (not intramuscular), talk to your doctor though, even Dr. Powers recommends going to injections by year 3. I prefer subQ over IM, it's easier to manage. It has a sustained and steady release, which for me avoids the peaks and valleys you'd get using oral E2, plus better bioavailability and feminization. I've also had an orchidectomy like you moobdood. 

[Manue]

Thanks for the quick comeback Lotus.

You are right about the spike, I did take the 2mg before sampling, 2mg was taken more than 12 hours earlier. According to my doc, this wasn't the cause but my recent sample, I waited after to take my dose. They said the feminization was too fast and the level not healthy. So, my dosage was reduced to 4mg sublingual, 2mg oral. We are going to see the lowest I go during a day (at new dosage) and we will have more data probably next week as it's my follow up appointment. I'll post update in my thread.

Symptoms were the following:

-Facial feminization over a month, (Jamie-May could attest this, I won't post pictures here.)
-Nausea, (Reduced with P5P)
-Full pelvic tilt over a month,
-Lower back pain and pain in the pelvis. (Needed to learn to walk, sit and stand differently)
-Can't wear men's jeans anymore.
-Started wearing a bra. (That was the most difficult to deal with. )

If you're levels are still high there's some plausible explanations, for instance: You're sensitive to estradiol and PM…to determine this it would require screening your DNA using the P450 family of enzymes, or genetic testing ruling out klinefelter's syndrome. I went through the same thing, I could post more info in your thread if you'd like?

I'd love to read more. I want to understand what went wrong (or well) with me. My experience is unlike what I read and finding the root cause is on my mind. Transitioning was also never in my cards, but the brain fog lifting, dysphoria poofing away and the calmness from inverting the endo pretty much sealed the deal for me. Now I'm drifting.

See you in my thread.

[Moobdood]

Thank you both for the info, my endo has told me that injectible is just as effective as oral? I have thought about trying injectible but I am worried about how scarce sometimes it seems to get? He also told me that if you let it dissolve under your tongue it won't give you more Estradiol? It will give you a huge peak/rush of E right at once that will eventually peter out throughout the day, whereas if you swallow them normally you will get a more even distribution of E. This is what I've been told anyway. I'm just sad because there seems to be alot more methods for NBE for cis females, but that can't be done for trans women? Because we are always going to have to have our E receptors open for our Estradiol, whereas it seems cis women can also take phytoestrogens and have more success with things like Fenugreek, PM etc.? At least that's what I seem to understand? I'm not sure if maybe letting my E receptors take in Fenugreek or PM for a little bit instead of E might mix things up a bit? Obviously Estradiol is gonna be more effective, yet why are there lots of instances of cis females having breast augmentation from PM over the years? Shouldn't their natural E they produce be more effective? I don't understand that?