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Does nbe pm or no have an affect on hair loss or thinning hair

#1

Hello I was just wondering if anyone has any experience on using nbE supplements specifically p.m. or Bo in regards to hair loss or thinning hair on their scalp?

I know all the advertisements on labels and things like that all say that's overtime it should help with the health of your hair and make it stronger etc but I guess my question is if your hair is thinning will it help with making it thicker.

And on the opposite side of that if your hairline has receded does either p.m. or Bo help with kickstarting of regrowth or new growth of hair follicles in an area where hair has once receded? 

Obviously I think once the hair has receded and those follicles are no longer there in the scalp that's pretty much done and over with unless you do some sort of hair follicle transplant, but that's just me thinking logically I could be wrong. 

Looking forward to seeing what people have to say or think or what their experiences have been with PM or Bo in regards to the health of their hair on their heads.
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#2

I am no expert, and anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt or in the eyes of a real expert, 12.4 grains of salt.

Everyone is different obviously, but it's my understanding that DHT is the main reason for hair loss. The only thing that I am aware of that will regrow hair and stop degenerative hair loss is Finasteride, Dutasteride & Minoxidil. Red Reishi Mushroom is good for lowering DHT, so that might help slow hair loss.

I was on RR for the last couple of years, but this summer I had unexpected accelerated hair shedding. It was coming off in gobs. Thankfully it wasn't overall noticeable, but it did concern me. I did get a six month supply of Finasteride, but I have yet to use it as the shedding suddenly slowed dramatically. I think my problem now is hair weakening. When I comb my hair now, select strands will snap, so I'm going to look into that today. I've been on HRT E2/17b for 3.5 years, btw.

Finasteride does have some serious side effects as far as male function is concerned. Look into Post Finasteride Syndrome if you're considering this route. I'd honestly recommend you do a keyword search in some of the transgender subreddits. There's a ton of info on there from people who are concerned about this same issue.

Best of luck to you.
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#3

Saw palmetto and Fenugreek are used (in herbal medication) to strengthen and thicken hair; PM increases blood circulation to the skin so may increase hair growth, could also restore recently lost hair. Problem with male baldness is once the follicle dies (blood starvation) the only way to get it back is a transplant.

Personally I have used SP, FG and PM in the past and the only difference was faster growth and less grey; the loss of grey hair may be due to vitamins etc.
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#4

Yeah I haven't really seen much difference in hair or skin granted I've only been on it for about 3 weeks now so we will see even if it just thickens and strengthens the hair that does grow then I'm good with that. I agree transplant is probably the only way to effectively have new hair growth in an area that the hair follicles had previously died
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#5

Stevenator,

Thanks for mentioning Post Finasteride Syndrome. I have been on Fin for over 5 years. I had never heard of this.
It's is probably on the information sheet that the pharmacy gives me with the pills but, you know, I never read that stuff.

I don't think that I have suffered any of these side-effects, with the exception of loss of libido and erectile abilities, which I expected,
but I am glad to know about the potential for more serious consequences such as depression and suicide.

Thanks again,

Karen  Heart
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#6

You're welcome Karen ....

Apparently the side effects of Finasteride were so numerous, the government mandated warning labels and possibly more. I say possibly because I did some serious research into Finasteride last September and I've forgotten a lot of the specifics.

There is a ton of information posted online, but most of these articles just dance around the subject of the side effects. It's my opinion that the suicide & depression aspects are related to losing the ability to attain an erection. Granted, not everyone experiences all the different side effects, but enough have reported them for it to become a so-called issue. If you haven't had this happen to you, serious congrats.

They do a good job of hiding the info about loss if erections. I swear I think a lot of these web pages are only created just to sell ads, because all the info contained within is just regurgitated from other sources.

Side-Note .... Go on a website looking for a recipe. Sift through all the ads and "keep reading" and "scroll for more", when all you want is a recipe. The website author starts out her story about how the she grew up on her Grandfather's farm. He was a hard working man who raised three children and provided for his family with the fruits of the land. He survived the war only to come home to a factory job where he lost three fingers. He was an angry man.

At this point you're thinking, just give me the damn recipe!!! .... Rant-Off, but you get my point.

What I found when I did a deep dive into medical research sites like PubMed is that Finasteride can literally damage the penile shaft so as an erection is not obtainable. All these aforementioned websites about PFS will say that these symptoms can last for years after cessation of the medication, or you may never recover at all. What they don't tell you is that Finasteride can damage the penis mechanisms that cause & keep an erection. If this hasn't happened to you, congrats, but it's a very common occurrence with this medicine. You have to do a deep dive into research to even find this, but it appears that this is the root cause of losing elections and the cause of depression, etc.

I still have my six month supply, and I will start taking it if hair loss makes a turn for the worse. Currently I'm on Bicalutamide, which has its own set of concerns, but so far it's working okay. Eight years of NBE/HRT have already done a number on my package, but erections are still possible. I'm much much smaller than I was before, but I deal with it.

I hope that helps.
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#7

I was prescribed Dutasteride with Tamsulosin to address BPH which I believe started me on a boob growth path. Dutasteride being an option to Finasteride that I have since read could be 3 times more powerful than Fin. The combined Dut. plus Tams. is the BPH med on the subsidized list in Australia. Dut and/or Tam on their own are only available here on private prescription at full prices.

I feel the Dutasteride affected me negatively psychologically (much like reported for Fin) and definitely physically worsened my existing ED. I'm not sure I would say I have properly recovered 12 months later. I kept up just Tamsulosin for a while after stopping the Dutasteride part but the retrograde ejaculation that caused was a most unpleasant sensation for me and I stopped the Tam as well. Lately I've been taking low dose Cialis plus Saw Palmetto and it seems to be working better at treating my BPH than the other stuff but unfortunately its not doing a lot for the ED.

Interestingly enough when I tried PM for a week or so I felt my libido increased while taking it and I even felt I was getting somewhat firmer erections. That wasn't a side effect I was expecting at all and I don't know if it was just the extra psych stimulation I was getting from feeding my fetish or an actual side effect of the PM.

YMMV.
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#8

(30-01-2024, 05:06 AM)Wellworn Wrote:  Interestingly enough when I tried PM for a week or so I felt my libido increased while taking it and I even felt I was getting somewhat firmer erections.

If memory serves me correctly, the science guru on this website said years ago that this phenomenon can occur when beginning PM and it's because that your T senses competition from E, and T works to assert dominance over E. With continued use from PM, this will eventually cease and E will claim the day.

Or, something like that ....

Disclaimer: As always, when I post comments about previously published comments, notes & research by said guru, take my comment with a grain of salt and do a keyword search in the science threads.
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#9

(30-01-2024, 07:54 AM)Stevenator_ Wrote:  Disclaimer: As always, when I post comments about previously published comments, notes & research by said guru, take my comment with a grain of salt and do a keyword search in the science threads.
Good Advice said person. 

Hi Caged, 
Finasteride (and others like it) is a neurosteroid, which means it crosses the blood brain barrier. Finasteride blocks the biosynthesis of various neurosteroids such as allopregnanolone (ALLO) and Tetrahidroteoxicorticosterone (THDOC)... which causes depression (and suicidal thoughts). 

I've never heard of any suicides stemming fron ED, I could be wrong though. 

When starting PM/E2 or other phytoestrogens, testosterone production goes through the roof as it tries to compensate for the loss of testosterone. In scientific terms it's called supraphysiological response. I've added information beow.
(01-06-2015, 06:20 PM)Lotus Wrote:  Here's some information about Finasteride. One important distinction about Finasteride is in the highlighted text, perhaps mediating GABA-A modulation which can lead to depression.

allopregnanolone (ALLO) and Tetrahidroteoxicorticosterone (THDOC)
(allosteric modulators) of GABA-A receptors,

The way finasteride causes post finasteride syndrome in certain individuals is unknown. Finasteride blocks the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), but also causes changes in testosterone levels, LH and FSH. 1 Finasteride also blocks the biosynthesis of various neuro steroids such as allopregnanolone (ALLO) and Tetrahidroteoxicorticosterone (THDOC), which are isoforms of the enzyme 5 alpha reductase. ALLO and THDOC are positive modulators (allosteric modulators) of GABA-A receptors, which have the same mechanism of action of anxiolytic drugs such as benzodiazepines. 2, 3 Finasteride has been shown to inhibit the biosynthesis of these neuro steroids, which can be one of the causes for the emotional and sexual symptoms reported. 4 However, some symptoms, such as muscle wasting, loss of body hair and the continuation of symptoms long after the medication has been discontinued, have not been explained yet. Because some patients with SPF have normal or high levels of testosterone - but at the same time a complete clinical state of hypogonadism - it has been hypothesized that these individuals have developed a form of resistance to androgen hormones. 5

__

(More on GABA AND THE GABA-A RECEPTOR later) in the meantime I'll link this website which is using alternative methods (great site btw).
Anxiety attack symptoms
http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/anxie...z3bpcZFE2P
________________________________________

Depressive Symptoms and Suicidal Thoughts Among Former Users of Finasteride With Persistent Sex
http://www.psychiatrist.com/JCP/article/...n0911.aspx

New research, published in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, finds that men who developed persistent sexual side effects while on finasteride (Propecia), a drug commonly used for male pattern hair loss, have a high prevalence of depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts.

Conclusions: Clinicians and potential users of finasteride should be aware of the potential risk of depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts. The preliminary findings of this study warrant further research with controlled studies.


Studies

"Depressive Symptoms and Suicidal Thoughts Among Former Users of Finasteride With Persistent Sexual Side Effects. " 
Michael S. Irwig, MD. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, 2012 DOI: 10.4088/JCP.12m07887
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201...101330.htm

"A new look at the 5alpha reductase inhibitor Finasteride" (2006):
CNS Drug Rev. 2006 Spring;12(1):53-76.

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=202


"5alpha-reductase inhibitors and erectile dysfunction: Connection" (2008 study):
Erdemir F, Harbin A, Hellstrom WJ.

http :/ / www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=19090946


Finasteride induced depression:
In the study, a controlled group of 128 men, with a daily dose of 1mg per day, had clear and significant increase in depression, verified by BDI and HADS in patients taking finasteride.

Rahimi-Ardabili B, R Pourandarjani, Habibollahi P Mualeki A (2006).
"Finasteride induced depression: a prospective study"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17026771

Finasteride robustly increases anxiety and depression in animals:
Römer B , Gass P (December 2010). "Finasteride-induced depression: new insights into possible pathomechanisms." Journal of Cosmetic Dermatology

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21122055

Depression associated to the use of Finasteride
In this study, using 1mg dosage, Finasteride induced moderate to severe depression in 19 of the 23 participants, or 83%, including notably, all female subjects. University of Milan: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12433...t=Abstract

"Adverse Side Effects of 5α-Reductase Inhibitors Therapy: Persistent Diminished Libido and Erectile Dysfunction and Depression in a Subset of Patients"
Published on December  2010 on The Journal of Sexual Medicine

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.11...x/abstract
Authors:
Abdulmaged M. Traish PhD
Dr. Andre T. Guay MD
Dr. D Michael Zitzmann, PhD
Dr. John Hassani MA.
Michael L. Hansen MD


"Finasteride and Neuroactive Steroids."
The study concluded that there was a drastic reduction of neuro active steroids after a period of four months, with controlled groups that used doses of Finasteride 1mg and 5 mg. Observe the decrease in allopregnanolone (-303.1%).


"Finasteride and Neuroactive Steroids."
Published in Prague Medical Report m 2009 (Vol. 110)


Study indicates finasteride inhibits the conversion of hormones into neurosteroids in the brain. These neurosteroids have antidepressant, antianxiety and anticonvulsive effects.

Among them Allopregnanolone and Tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone.
"A new vision on Finasteride"
Department of veterans, Portland, USA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov / pubmed/16834758? Dopt = Abstract

Male infertility associated with the use of finasteride.
Study of the human reproduction unit,  Albert Einstein Hospital, Sao Paulo -

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0041-87812004000400009&tlng=es&lng=en&nrm=iso

Links of various studies relating finasteride use to infertility, sperm motility problems and fail in spermatogenesis:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=245

Study with photographic evidence that the shrinkage of the prostate induced by finasteride is caused through cell death (apoptosis).
Dalhousie University, Halifax, Canada:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/81/2/814.abstract

Study proves that finasteride alters levels of testosterone, DHT, hormone luteinizing, follicle stimulating hormone.
Uroclínica from the Health Ministry, Ankara, Turkey:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/95895...t=Abstract


Finasteride alters cholesterol levels after 6 months of treatment.
University of Parma,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10996351&dopt=Citation

Chemical castration effect related to the use of finasteride.
Chart of the American Environmental Agency EPA

http://www.epa.gov/comptox/bosc_review/2...Barton.pdf

Links to various studies about finasteride, both 1mg and 5mg:
http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewforum.php?
f=8&sid=511e2201fa63bd8c5ee8ad81f4ca7e4b

http://finasteridesyndrome.blogspot.com/p/studies.html



Why we experience testicular pain is simple, and it's called “ negative feedback”. The testes (and penis) have estrogen receptors, so, when testosterone is being instructed to produce less testosterone in genital tissue (testes & penis) via the hypothalamus axis/LH (Luteinizing Hormone) we experience the “negative feedback loop” from using phytoestrogens or estradiol… and using anti-androgens. Women experience negative feedback throughout their menstrual cycle, PCOS comes to mind. Even in hyperandrogenism we experience negative feedback… amongst other examples too. 

Endocrinology of the Male Reproductive System and Spermatogenesis

CLINICAL SUMMARY

The testes synthesize two essential products: testosterone, needed for the development and maintenance of many physiological functions including normal testis function; and sperm, needed for male fertility. The synthesis of both products is regulated by endocrine hormones produced in the hypothalamus and pituitary, as well as locally within the testis.

What it means is that testosterone production of testosterone is turned down, that's when the hypothalamus recognizes the loss of testosterone production and produces more testosterone (which is termed supraphysiological reaction of said negative feedback). The feeling might last for 3-4 weeks once hemostasis is established (a return of receptor set points). You'll experience a reduction of penis/scrotum size because the testosterone/estrogen ratio is altered. 

The secretion of hypothalamic gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) stimulates production of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) by the pituitary. LH is transported in the bloodstream to the testes, where it stimulates Leydig cells to produce testosterone: this can act as an androgen (via interaction with androgen receptors) but can also be aromatized to produce estrogens. The testes, in turn, feedback on the hypothalamus and the pituitary via testosterone and inhibin secretion, in a negative feedback loop to limit GnRH and gonadotropin production. Both androgens and FSH act on receptors within the supporting somatic cells, the Sertoli cells, to stimulate various functions needed for optimal sperm production. Spermatogenesis is the process by which immature male germ cells divide, undergo meiosis and differentiate into highly specialized haploid spermatozoa. Optimal spermatogenesis requires the action of both testosterone (via androgen receptors) and FSH.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK279031/
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#10

Interesting, I've been on Fin for a good while now, it dulled ny sex drive a bit and reduced my nocturnal erections, but it was when I added 2x RR a day, check my plan for doses and length of times, I had both stop, I didn't like it so reduced to 1 RR a day and now have a good balance. I believe if you don't use it you loose it.
As for the hair I use monxodil, along with caffeine shampoo, the combination seems to have reversed most of the thinning on top and revived some of the almost gone folicals too.
I'm currently growing my hair out and quite paranoid about hairs in the combe I use when I am conditioning my hair. Some loss but it's only a few, is what I tell my self.
Danni X
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