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I've got some questions regarding Supplements

#1

Hello once again to everybody, I'm Mike and I'm new in the forum. I read some of your threads and I admire your extensive knowledge about how hormones work. I was hoping you could help me. We might have some differences but please, bare with me. I would really appreciate your help.


I'm taking some supplements with the intention to raise my Testosterone levels. It is quite a cocktail, but I don't want to complicate even more the equation so I will just mention my question regarding one of them: D Aspartic Acid.

I'm taking 3000mg one day, the next day I take 2352mg, next day 3000mg and so on. You get the idea. I take it like that because it's two different blends of supps. Anyway, I've been taking that for 16 days and on the month I will take a break for 2 weeks and then resume.


As far as I know it is known to raise testosterone by 40% but also estrogen by 80%, right?

I want to raise my testosterone (and hopefully with the help from the other supplements) to get hairier.

My question is: If, for example, I keep taking it for two years, will I get hairier and at the same time I will grow breasts?

I know it's going to be a huge guess but, to what dosage of PM/Fenugreek/whatever-breast-enlargement-herb do you think it's comparable estrogen-wise?


I'm probably going to have to mention later on, the other supplements for testosterone that I'm taking. I just don't want to overwhelm you more...


PS: I'm also massaging my chest and belly everyday twice a day with Peppermint oil diluted in body cream. Although I do it for the bloodflow to the hair follicle, I guess massaging affects the breasts too. Just so you have it in mind.


Lastly, I've been feeling some sensitivity on my chest area. Is it just the increased bloodflow on the skin? Or something is happening in my breasts? I will not do the massage tomorrow, to check if I still feel it. how does it feel when they grow anyway?


Thank you for taking the time to read my post. I'm aware of the complexity of it and that it's hard to process. It just would mean a lot to me if we could figure it out together. I don't expect quick answers, just to work it out.


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#2

Are you trying to grow breasts, or avoid growing them inadvertently?
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#3

My priority at the moment is growing more body hair and getting some muscle. I wouldn't mind eventually growing breasts. As long as I stay masculine in the rest of aspects.

I was just wondering if it's going to happen unintentionally. To know what to expect. To know if I need to make a decision.

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#4

It sounds to me like you are all over the place and trying for too much at the same time.

I think you have to make a choice of whether you want to go for testosterone for a more masculine appearance, or go for estrogen for the feminine. You can't have it both ways at once.

I am not familiar with D-Aspartic acid, but I did look it up and it seems to promote increase in testosterone.

PM works exactly the same as estrogen. You will get breasts, but also decreased libido, probably genital shrinkage, and other feminizing effects - including less body hair.

Fenugreek is fairly safe in that it should give breasts with no other side effects, providing you can tolerate it.

I would suggest that you research any and all possible supplements that you are considering before taking them. Even seemingly harmless herbs have certain results. This is a very good forum to ask your questions and look up information.

Keep in mind too that it is all in the genes. Testosterone, estrogen, or any other herbs will only enhance what nature gave you. I had the opportunity to have all the steroids that I wanted, but it would not have made me a fearsome bodybuilder!  LOL

Joey
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#5

(29-01-2021, 12:08 AM)guy_and_lingerie Wrote:  It sounds to me like you are all over the place and trying for too much at the same time.

I think you have to make a choice of whether you want to go for testosterone for a more masculine appearance, or go for estrogen for the feminine. You can't have it both ways at once.

I am not familiar with D-Aspartic acid, but I did look it up and it seems to promote increase in testosterone.

PM works exactly the same as estrogen. You will get breasts, but also decreased libido, probably genital shrinkage, and other feminizing effects - including less body hair.

Fenugreek is fairly safe in that it should give breasts with no other side effects, providing you can tolerate it.

I would suggest that you research any and all possible supplements that you are considering before taking them. Even seemingly harmless herbs have certain results. This is a very good forum to ask your questions and look up information.

Keep in mind too that it is all in the genes. Testosterone, estrogen, or any other herbs will only enhance what nature gave you. I had the opportunity to have all the steroids that I wanted, but it would not have made me a fearsome bodybuilder!  LOL

Joey


No no, don't misunderstand me. I know exactly what I want. As I said, I want to raise my testosterone. That's the only way to grow body hair... I do research everything. A lot. But if you raise Testosterone Estrogen follows, right?

I just wanted to know what you people think, does that dosage of D Aspartic Acid sound to you like an equivalent to taking something oriented for breast enlargement? It's not what I'm aiming for at the moment. I just wonder if both results would happen.

Thanks for the comment Joey Smile

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#6

(29-01-2021, 12:38 AM)Mike_Chest Wrote:  

(29-01-2021, 12:08 AM)guy_and_lingerie Wrote:  It sounds to me like you are all over the place and trying for too much at the same time.

I think you have to make a choice of whether you want to go for testosterone for a more masculine appearance, or go for estrogen for the feminine. You can't have it both ways at once.

I am not familiar with D-Aspartic acid, but I did look it up and it seems to promote increase in testosterone.

PM works exactly the same as estrogen. You will get breasts, but also decreased libido, probably genital shrinkage, and other feminizing effects - including less body hair.

Fenugreek is fairly safe in that it should give breasts with no other side effects, providing you can tolerate it.

I would suggest that you research any and all possible supplements that you are considering before taking them. Even seemingly harmless herbs have certain results. This is a very good forum to ask your questions and look up information.

Keep in mind too that it is all in the genes. Testosterone, estrogen, or any other herbs will only enhance what nature gave you. I had the opportunity to have all the steroids that I wanted, but it would not have made me a fearsome bodybuilder!  LOL

Joey


No no, don't misunderstand me. I know exactly what I want. As I said, I want to raise my testosterone. That's the only way to grow body hair... I do research everything. A lot. But if you raise Testosterone Estrogen follows, right?

I just wanted to know what you people think, does that dosage of D Aspartic Acid sound to you like an equivalent to taking something oriented for breast enlargement? It's not what I'm aiming for at the moment. I just wonder if both results would happen.

Thanks for the comment Joey Smile


Re: I know exactly what I want.

That's the best vantage point, regardless of the aim.
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#7

(29-01-2021, 02:37 AM)VergeOfDiscovery Wrote:  
(29-01-2021, 12:38 AM)Mike_Chest Wrote:  

(29-01-2021, 12:08 AM)guy_and_lingerie Wrote:  It sounds to me like you are all over the place and trying for too much at the same time.

I think you have to make a choice of whether you want to go for testosterone for a more masculine appearance, or go for estrogen for the feminine. You can't have it both ways at once.

I am not familiar with D-Aspartic acid, but I did look it up and it seems to promote increase in testosterone.

PM works exactly the same as estrogen. You will get breasts, but also decreased libido, probably genital shrinkage, and other feminizing effects - including less body hair.

Fenugreek is fairly safe in that it should give breasts with no other side effects, providing you can tolerate it.

I would suggest that you research any and all possible supplements that you are considering before taking them. Even seemingly harmless herbs have certain results. This is a very good forum to ask your questions and look up information.

Keep in mind too that it is all in the genes. Testosterone, estrogen, or any other herbs will only enhance what nature gave you. I had the opportunity to have all the steroids that I wanted, but it would not have made me a fearsome bodybuilder!  LOL

Joey


No no, don't misunderstand me. I know exactly what I want. As I said, I want to raise my testosterone. That's the only way to grow body hair... I do research everything. A lot. But if you raise Testosterone Estrogen follows, right?

I just wanted to know what you people think, does that dosage of D Aspartic Acid sound to you like an equivalent to taking something oriented for breast enlargement? It's not what I'm aiming for at the moment. I just wonder if both results would happen.

Thanks for the comment Joey Smile


Re: I know exactly what I want.

That's the best vantage point, regardless of the aim.
Agreed and I see from your follow up that I misunderstood.

Joey
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#8

Hi Mike, 

You came here seeking answers, so...let's see if we can help. I am perplexed why you didn't reach out to a Body Builder website...or maybe you did. But hey, if you'd like hairy boobs later on so be it. 

Do keep in mind d-aspartic acid can be metabolized to estrogen via the Aromatase enzyme. And the exact way would be from cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP), it's a second messenger pathway. In this scenario T is converted to E. My suggestion would be to add an aromatase inhibitor to stop the conversion to estrogen. Google Aromatase Inhibitors. An herbal version could be by adding DIM (Diindolylmethane). I am wondering how you'll handle the increase in DHT?, I'm thinking as you add chest hair you'll lose the hair on your head. Or just add a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor (5 ar inhibitor) it blocks DHT in hair and other target tissues.

Aromatase expression and role of estrogens in male gonad : a review
Serge Carreau et al. Reprod Biol Endocrinol. 2003.
Free PMC article

Abstract
The ability of the testis to convert irreversibly androgens into estrogens is related to the presence of a microsomal enzymatic complex named aromatase, which is composed of a specific glycoprotein, the cytochrome P450 aromatase (P450arom) and an ubiquitous reductase. The aromatase gene is unique in humans and contained 18 exons, 9 of them being translated. In the rat testis we have immune localized the P450arom not only in Leydig cells but also in germ cells and especially in elongated spermatids. Related to the stage of germ cell maturation, we have shown that the level of P450arom mRNA transcripts decreases, it is much more abundant in pachytene spermatocytes and round spermatids than in mature germ cells whereas the aromatase activity is 2-4 fold greater in spermatozoa when compared to the younger germ cells. Using a highly specific quantitative competitive RT-PCR method we have evidenced that several factors direct the expression of the aromatase gene in Leydig cells, Sertoli cells, pachytene spermatocytes and round spermatids, and it is obvious that promoter PII is the main one but other promoters could be concerned. In the bank-vole testis we have observed a positive correlation between a fully developed spermatogenesis and a strong immunoreactivity for both P450arom and estrogen receptor beta not only in Sertoli cells but also in pachytene spermatocytes and round spermatids. Our recent data obtained from ejaculated human spermatozoa demonstrate the presence of aromatase both in terms of mRNA and protein, and in addition, we suggest that aromatase could be involved in the acquisition of sperm motility. Indeed in men the congenital aromatase deficiency is associated with severe bone maturation problems and sterility. Together with the widespread distribution of estrogen receptors in testicular cells these data clearly show that estrogens play a physiological role in the regulation of spermatogenesis in mammals.




The promoter(s) of the aromatase gene in male testicular cells
Serge Carreau et al. Reprod Biol. 2004 Mar.


Abstract
Aromatase is the terminal enzyme responsible for estrogen biosynthesis in mammals; it is present in various testicular cells including germ cells. The aromatase gene (Cyp19) is unique in humans and its expression is regulated in a tissue and more precisely, in a cell-specific manner via the alternative use of various promoters located in the first exon. Nevertheless, there is little information concerning the regulation of the testicular aromatase especially in germ cells. This prompted us to study the control of Cyp19 gene expression and its role in the regulation of the testicular androgen/estrogen ratio. Gonadotrophins and cAMP modulate aromatase expression in somatic cells which confirms that promoter II is controlled via CRE. Moreover, we have demonstrated that in highly purified germ cells from adult rats (pachytene spermatocytes and round spermatids), transforming growth factor beta (TGFbeta) inhibited the expression of Cyp19 in both germ cell types. In contrast, tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNFalpha) stimulated Cyp19 expression in pachytene spermatocytes. The effect of TNFalpha is amplified in presence of dexamethasone. Therefore, we suggest that in germ cells, TNFalpha enhances expression of aromatase through promoter PI.4 in pachytene spermatocytes, possibly via an AP1 site upstream the GAS element, while in round spermatids TNF requires glucocorticoids as a co-stimulator to increase Cyp19 gene expression. In addition, we have shown that androgens and estrogens by themselves modulate Cyp19 gene expression in all testicular cell types studied suggesting the presence of ARE and ERE on the Cyp19 gene promoter(s). Finally, in presence of seminiferous tubules or Sertoli cell-conditioned media, aromatase transcripts are increased in both Leydig cells and germ cells suggesting that other locally produced modulators (e.g. LRH-1) are involved in the regulation of the aromatase gene expression especially in Leydig cells. Using RACE (Rapid Amplification of cDNA Ends)-PCR, we have confirmed that promoter II mainly directs expression of the aromatase gene in all testicular cell types studied in the rat. However, involvement of another promoter such as PI.4 is suggested as well.
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#9

Exactly Lotus, you totally got my point. Thank you so much for your help. You really shed some light on this.

I just looked it up and it seems like I3C (Indole-3-Carbinol) is the precursor of DIM, the latter is not exactly Bioavailable by itself so I'm going to have to take I3C instead. I will do it as soon as possible. I've also been thinking about adding Biotin to the cocktail, that can only help right? It's meant for hair growth.

I'm going to get bloodtests done to keep an eye on things. The laboratory where I'll go doesn't offer any DHT checks, I'm only going to get readings about Testosterone, FSH, LH, SHBG, Prolactin and TSH. Is it possible to calculate DHT out of that? Or is it just enough with those?

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#10

(29-01-2021, 01:20 PM)Mike_Chest Wrote:  

Exactly Lotus, you totally got my point. Thank you so much for your help. You really shed some light on this.

I just looked it up and it seems like I3C (Indole-3-Carbinol) is the precursor of DIM, the latter is not exactly Bioavailable by itself so I'm going to have to take I3C instead. I will do it as soon as possible. I've also been thinking about adding Biotin to the cocktail, that can only help right? It's meant for hair growth.

I'm going to get bloodtests done to keep an eye on things. The laboratory where I'll go doesn't offer any DHT checks, I'm only going to get readings about Testosterone, FSH, LH, SHBG, Prolactin and TSH. Is it possible to calculate DHT out of that? Or is it just enough with those?


Glad to help Mike. Biotin is a good carb metabolizer choice. I was going to recommend ALCAR-Acetyl L-Carnitine, for a number of reasons. https://atpscience.com/what-are-the-benefits-of-acetyl-l-carnitine/

Are you taking any ATP supps?...ATP is also a vasodilator (widens arteries) and for production of energy. 

 Have you thought of applying rogaine to your chest?...foam is better. Rogaine is also a vasodilator too. 

DHT requires a separate test (unfortunately). Honestly I could tell you quite a bit just from T and SHBG...like bio T, free T, and whether or not E is high or low, vice-versa with T. Those steroid hormones you list are a good panel. I would suggest testing liver enzymes, just to see how your liver function is handling the program. 

I'd like to see all the supplements you're taking if that's ok. Send me a pm if that works better. . 
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