[Lotus]

So some surprising facts:

This is just to show the differences to NBE and using real hormones:

Feminizing Hormone Regimens

If you have access to laboratory testing, a serum estradiol level of about 125-200 pg/ml – about one-third to one-half the normal female mid-cycle peak – is often considered ideal, at least for the first two years or so of feminizing therapy. It is not necessary or desirable to "cycle" estrogen, or any other medication, in an attempt to mimic the normal female menstrual cycle.

If you have access to laboratory testing, a serum testosterone level within the normal female range – about 5-85 ng/dl for total testosterone, or 0.1–2.2 pg/ml for free testosterone – is usually considered ideal. Within the female normal range, lower numbers are not necessarily better.
http://annelawrence.com/regimens.html

• Estradiol is also present in males, being produced as an active metabolic product of testosterone. The serum levels of estradiol in males (14 - 55 pg/mL) are roughly comparable to those of postmenopausal women (< 35 pg/mL).
  

• Normal estrogen levels in women prior to menopause range from 50 pg/mL to 400 pg/mL.
  
  

• Most men produce 6-8 mg of the male hormone testosterone (an androgen) per day, compared to most women who produce 0.5 mg daily. Female hormones, estrogens, are also present in both sexes, but in larger amounts for women.
  
  

[Lotus]

Ok, not PM (sorry) but this is about progesterone for men, which some of it is surprising.

• What are the symptoms of “estrogen dominance”?
  According to John R. Lee, M.D.*, symptoms of estrogen dominance that men can experience include weight gain, bloating, mood swings, irritability, headaches, fatigue, depression and hypoglycemia. Estrogen dominance is known to contribute to cancer of prostate and the breast. It may seem paradoxical, but men are not immune to breast cancer

• When should men start using natural progesterone?
  Men can enjoy many of the non-female-specific benefits of the hormone. Dr. Lee* has recommended progesterone supplementation for men in their late forties and older, when they experience low energy or fatigue, decreased libido, have increased body fat, enlarged prostate or to want to help prevent prostate enlargement.

• Progesterone is needed to counter-balance the effects of excess estrogens. Also, by blocking the enzyme 5a-reductase (see the diagram), progesterone inhibits the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), which is a stimulant of prostate cell growth.

• What is the dose of progesterone for men?
  It should not exceed 8 mg per day. Depending on body weight, an average daily dose is 3 - 5 mg. The dose can be single or split between morning and afternoon. Progesterone should be used for 21 to 25 consecutive days in a month and discontinued until the end of the month; the cycle is then repeated.

-Excessive long-term use of progesterone (or any other hormones) may lead to hormonal imbalance.

[Eloise]

This is slightly off topic but I'll ask it nevertheless.

Are estrogen receptors a finite number (we have X and all we will ever has is X) or is there some way to increase them?

The reason I ask is two fold. One, the obvious reason is because if receptors can be increased then breast growth, theoretically, could be potentially quickened. Two, there is a cost element here: we're essentially taking PM doses based on what others have taken. In other words, we're not sure if the amount we're taking is maximizing the receptors or if the amount is leaving many receptors still to be had. We either are wasting money or not spending enough.

Furthermore, it seems like there are a myriad of other variables that we haven't really considered and/or really explored: body mass index, daily calorie intake, metabolism, ect..

As one who really enjoys your wonkish posts on the 'inner workings' of NBE aspects, I cannot say 'Thank you' enough.

[Lotus]

This is slightly off topic but I'll ask it nevertheless.

Are estrogen receptors a finite number (we have X and all we will ever has is X) or is there some way to increase them?

The reason I ask is two fold. One, the obvious reason is because if receptors can be increased then breast growth, theoretically, could be potentially quickened. Two, there is a cost element here: we're essentially taking PM doses based on what others have taken. In other words, we're not sure if the amount we're taking is maximizing the receptors or if the amount is leaving many receptors still to be had. We either are wasting money or not spending enough.

Furthermore, it seems like there are a myriad of other variables that we haven't really considered and/or really explored: body mass index, daily calorie intake, metabolism, ect..

As one who really enjoys your wonkish posts on the 'inner workings' of NBE aspects, I cannot say 'Thank you' enough.

Excellent question Eloise!

The best way to describe this is first using the attachment:

   

Then the following would be the scientific response bellow, your reasoning and suggestion is sound!. My thought was that a cascade of E was the best possible approach. I think I've learned that making that response of E to work smarter not harder is working better for me. Meaning, adding the right supplements that do specific actions, currently there is no one magic pill to do everything. Overloading the receptors with PM doesn't always mean better. I always end up offending someone when I make that statement, but it's just my opinion, and gawd!, it doesn't mean it's gospel either. So whether the science is out there governing large doses I'll give you this statement from Dr. Anne Lawrence;

Occasionally half the suggested dosage may be sufficient. Sometimes the dosage will need to be increased, rarely even doubled. Beyond a certain point, larger dosages will not increase tissue response, but will only cause more side effects.
http://annelawrence.com/regimens.html

I've tried to do this cycle to achieve those targets:

1-estrogenic herb
1-pro hormone
1-pro aromatase
1-potentiator

More on the thread:
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=17658


Estrogen, 17-beta-estradiol binds to both the ER alpha and ER beta receptors but not to androgen, progestin, or thyroid receptors. Each receptor version may turn on and off different responses in different cells in different parts of the body. For instance, ER alpha, promotes tissue growth and is found in greater amounts in the uterus, pituitary gland, and epididymis (the male sperm storing structure). ER alpha stimulates certain breast cancer cells to grow in response to estrogen hormones. The other version, ER beta, inhibits growth (possibly suppressing cancer) and prevails in the ovary and prostate. It can act like a dimmer switch for ER alpha, turning down its growth-stimulating effect.


Binding produces two distinct signaling routines: either slower via gene expression (hours to days) or very rapidly via molecular exchanges, or cascades (seconds to minutes). In both cases, the cell responds to the signals by manipulating proteins or building new ones. The affected workhorse proteins carry out specialized functions, such as controlling cell processes, building cells and tissues, or carting messages elsewhere within the cell or around the body.

As one who really enjoys your wonkish posts on the 'inner workings' of NBE aspects, I cannot say 'Thank you' enough.

Thank you for your comment, I can only say that it's the E has changed my desire to know more about NBE lol. Honestly, I was a complete slacker in school and just wanted to go out and experience life. So I can't quite explain my need for NBE ....knowledge that is.

[Scotti]

Wow, that's alot of info to digest!

So what I got out of it it two fold:

1. That in theory, depending on the amount of active ingredient and how much PM that one is taking, it could be equivalent to true female hormone replacement therapy? If this is the case, are there any long time, heavy does users on here that have changed much like is seen on some of the other boards from just taking PM? Wouldn't that answer the question?

2. That taking large quantities of PM is not necessary to increase breast size; some may only need a little while other may need more to see results. Lots of other factors need to be considered.

Hopefully I'm not way off here....

I do like this statement from Dr. Anne, as it backs up what others have said about using a few drops of liquid PM versus pills.

"Estradiol tablets can be taken sublingually (placed under the tongue to dissolve) instead of being swallowed. This may reduce possible liver toxicity, because with sublingual administration, much of the medication is absorbed directly into the blood stream, rather than being metabolized by the liver after first passing through the digestive tract. Less metabolism is also likely to result in higher levels of estradiol itself, and lower levels of its less-active metabolites, estrone and estriol"

[Eloise]

PM works to modulate receptor sites/cells in various areas of our body which then work to create E. But is there a set number of receptor sites within the human body? For example, using random numbers, does each person have only 100? Or could one person have 50 while another has 150? Maybe I'll have to borrow some of my med school friend's books.

Furthermore, it seems like each person could also vary in how quick the PM receptor modulation works. If so, the question naturally follows, would there be a way to quicken such modulation?

It's funny, I was a bit of a slacker in college but not out of laziness but out of the fact that my profs usually taught verbatim from the book (which they wrote!). What's the point in lecture if I can just read the same thing when I want to and not have to get up at 8am and slug across campus? At at top 20 world university, my attitude toward class was definitely not shared by my friends and other classmates. Plus, I liked the social side of college a bit better than wasting 4 years in a library.

[Lotus]

PM works to modulate receptor sites/cells in various areas of our body which then work to create E. But is there a set number of receptor sites within the human body? For example, using random numbers, does each person have only 100? Or could one person have 50 while another has 150? Maybe I'll have to borrow some of my med school friend's books.

Furthermore, it seems like each person could also vary in how quick the PM receptor modulation works. If so, the question naturally follows, would there be a way to quicken such modulation?

It's funny, I was a bit of a slacker in college but not out of laziness but out of the fact that my profs usually taught verbatim from the book (which they wrote!). What's the point in lecture if I can just read the same thing when I want to and not have to get up at 8am and slug across campus? At at top 20 world university, my attitude toward class was definitely not shared by my friends and other classmates. Plus, I liked the social side of college a bit better than wasting 4 years in a library.

Eloise,


I'm not sure mow many receptor cells the human body has, I'm not sure a PhD can even tell you that. I'm more sure of how many receptors sites (target tissues) there are, 6. Below are just some quick facts that are worth repeating.

There are two types of estrogen receptors, alpha and beta. Both are structurally and functionally very similar, although can have different localizations in the human body. While both types of receptors are found in the central nervous and cardiovascular systems, breast and bone tissue, and urogenital tract, estrogen alpha is prominent in the liver and estrogen beta in the gastrointestinal tract. The reason for this is not yet known, and it is postulated that the two types of estrogen receptors may have slightly different functions depending on their position in the body.

As a result, the estrogen receptor is a complex protein that controls both intricate and delicate aspects of human growth. To understand it fully, we must continue to study its structure in complex with its many coactivator proteins and hope to learn enough from those structures to form drugs that can battle breast, uterine, and endometrian cancers more efficiently.

I suppose its easier to understand how PM activates the receptors then trying to find out how many exist. So, of the 6 target areas they are different in there responses. But again, Estradiol, progesterone and prolactin normally activate the respective receptors that cause breast growth. Remember receptors are proteins found inside cells and regulated by DNA binding.

Lol, my social agenda was my primary concern!.

[Eloise]

Thank you for answering my insufferable questions.

This field of NBE seems to be a 'Wild West' of microbiology which is really, really exciting.

[Lotus]

Thank you for answering my insufferable questions.

This field of NBE seems to be a 'Wild West' of microbiology which is really, really exciting.

No worries, and yes, it's like trying to navigate through a minefield, But also it's perfectly acceptable for questions.

[GoneGirl]

Well, I'm no expert in this subject area, but something seems obvious to me.

Here's the description of 'estrogen receptor' from Wikipedia:

"Estrogen receptors are a group of proteins found inside cells. They are receptors that are activated by the hormone estrogen (17β-estradiol).[1] Two classes of estrogen receptor exist: ER, which is a member of the nuclear hormone family of intracellular receptors, and GPR30, which is a member of the rhodopsin-like family of G protein-coupled receptors. This article refers to the former (ER).

Once activated by estrogen, the ER is able to translocate into the nucleus and bind to DNA to regulate the activity of different genes (i.e. it is a DNA-binding transcription factor). However, it also has additional functions independent of DNA binding.[2]"

So the number of estrogen receptors is as many as there are cells containing the relevant proteins. That says that as breast tissue grows, the number of cells increases, so the number of receptors increases accordingly. There are literally MILLIONS of estrogen receptors in the body.

Okay, so set me straight. Where am I going off the rails?

Clara