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Project X (hrt)
(13-03-2019, 05:04 AM)Lotus Wrote:
(12-03-2019, 02:22 PM)Beverley50 Wrote:
(12-03-2019, 07:20 AM)Stevenator Wrote: Start a new thread ;-)


I second that!

A specific targeted thread, for us to learn from.

I would appreciate it since you are THE guru here Lotus.

Bev

(12-03-2019, 02:41 PM)julieTG Wrote: Lotus
certainly is

young,
super looks
highly intelligent
boobs to die for
x

quite a catch

lol

x

Julie



Thanks for the kind words friends. Bev, I don’t know if this post below specifically addresses what advise you were seeking, if not, please let me know.



Greetings,

So I was on nbe for about 2-3yrs and then HRT for 5 yrs. Currently, I don't take estradiol, my doctor determined I didn't need it anymore based on my history of blood tests. Both routes of delivery i took (oral and then IM intramuscular injections) sent my blood estradiol into the stratosphere, meaning my average blood test was between 700 pg/mL to 2200 pg/mL while on hrt. I had to assure my doctor on (many occasions) that I wasn't adding DIY meds, normally, gender docs want you under 200 pg/mL. It's been almost 4 months without E2, not easy to go cold Turkey, lol. I was prescribed the normal amounts of oral estradiol between 2mg-6mg of E2 and then .5 mL of IM intramuscular Injections. I liked how the injections made me feel to be quite honest, but there's a learning curve with self injection.

My last blood test revealed estradiol @ 275pg/mL and Testosterone 25 nd/dL, pretty close to normal....I was off E2 for approximately 5 weeks prior to the last test, the prior test was over 2200pg/mL.

When my doctor dropped the no E2 ban on me I felt like as if someone sucker punched me ? at first, panic set in, then disbelief, after about a minute it came to me, and I said to her:  " so you're saying I have the metabolism of a female "... to which she replies " fraid so ", well,  after hearing that, I immediately felt relief. I'll never forget the poignant way she said  "fraid so".

So this got me thinking about the total time I've been on NBE/HRT, and I say this in all seriousness, I haven't needed estrogen for the last five or six years lol... it just took that long to figure it out?, now that's crazy.

Having your E2 constantly in the stratosphere doesn't mean things go faster, in fact it dangerous. I'm talking about this now because I think it's worth telling people that you can do HRT or even nbe without all the added estrogen...so, exactly how, right?.

 I think anti-androgens crushed my T over the years to a point where its been running at 5 ng/dL for the last 5 yrs...basically zero. Too much E2 in my case made me feel lethargic and apathetic. My point I'm getting at (albiet slowly) is you can do nbe/HRT with no E2, just make sure your converting more T into E2 alongside using an effective anti-androgen, which for me that was Reishi for NBE and spiro/finasteride for HRT. I take spiro or finasteride a few times a week, that's about all I think I need at this point to keep things in balance. Don't get me wrong... I'm not singing Kumbaya going into the sunset just yet, I still miss the mental effects of having E2 on board, I just may RIP something off the f**king wall doing so because my T is at 25ng/dL, and for me that's significant.

Here's at pic taken today sitting down (post no E2 for 4 months), what do you think?

Hugs, L.


Thank you for this fantastic summary. From many years ago, I agreed with you that aromatase (T to E) was a big part of all this. You look great and I truly appreciate all the hard work and effort you have shared with all of us. I will continue to focus more on the converting part. Again thank you!
(10-04-2019, 08:36 PM)sioctober Wrote:
(13-03-2019, 05:04 AM)Lotus Wrote:
(12-03-2019, 02:22 PM)Beverley50 Wrote:
(12-03-2019, 07:20 AM)Stevenator Wrote: Start a new thread ;-)


I second that!

A specific targeted thread, for us to learn from.

I would appreciate it since you are THE guru here Lotus.

Bev

(12-03-2019, 02:41 PM)julieTG Wrote: Lotus
certainly is

young,
super looks
highly intelligent
boobs to die for
x

quite a catch

lol

x

Julie



Thanks for the kind words friends. Bev, I don’t know if this post below specifically addresses what advise you were seeking, if not, please let me know.



Greetings,

So I was on nbe for about 2-3yrs and then HRT for 5 yrs. Currently, I don't take estradiol, my doctor determined I didn't need it anymore based on my history of blood tests. Both routes of delivery i took (oral and then IM intramuscular injections) sent my blood estradiol into the stratosphere, meaning my average blood test was between 700 pg/mL to 2200 pg/mL while on hrt. I had to assure my doctor on (many occasions) that I wasn't adding DIY meds, normally, gender docs want you under 200 pg/mL. It's been almost 4 months without E2, not easy to go cold Turkey, lol. I was prescribed the normal amounts of oral estradiol between 2mg-6mg of E2 and then .5 mL of IM intramuscular Injections. I liked how the injections made me feel to be quite honest, but there's a learning curve with self injection.

My last blood test revealed estradiol @ 275pg/mL and Testosterone 25 nd/dL, pretty close to normal....I was off E2 for approximately 5 weeks prior to the last test, the prior test was over 2200pg/mL.

When my doctor dropped the no E2 ban on me I felt like as if someone sucker punched me ? at first, panic set in, then disbelief, after about a minute it came to me, and I said to her:  " so you're saying I have the metabolism of a female "... to which she replies " fraid so ", well,  after hearing that, I immediately felt relief. I'll never forget the poignant way she said  "fraid so".

So this got me thinking about the total time I've been on NBE/HRT, and I say this in all seriousness, I haven't needed estrogen for the last five or six years lol... it just took that long to figure it out?, now that's crazy.

Having your E2 constantly in the stratosphere doesn't mean things go faster, in fact it dangerous. I'm talking about this now because I think it's worth telling people that you can do HRT or even nbe without all the added estrogen...so, exactly how, right?.

 I think anti-androgens crushed my T over the years to a point where its been running at 5 ng/dL for the last 5 yrs...basically zero. Too much E2 in my case made me feel lethargic and apathetic. My point I'm getting at (albiet slowly) is you can do nbe/HRT with no E2, just make sure your converting more T into E2 alongside using an effective anti-androgen, which for me that was Reishi for NBE and spiro/finasteride for HRT. I take spiro or finasteride a few times a week, that's about all I think I need at this point to keep things in balance. Don't get me wrong... I'm not singing Kumbaya going into the sunset just yet, I still miss the mental effects of having E2 on board, I just may RIP something off the f**king wall doing so because my T is at 25ng/dL, and for me that's significant.

Here's at pic taken today sitting down (post no E2 for 4 months), what do you think?

Hugs, L.


Thank you for this fantastic summary. From many years ago, I agreed with you that aromatase (T to E) was a big part of all this. You look great and I truly appreciate all the hard work and effort you have shared with all of us. I will continue to focus more on the converting part. Again thank you!


Hi sioctober,

 You're welcome, and thank you for the compliment. Smile I'm glad the information helped, good luck and happy growing.

P.s. In ovarian function, estradiol is derived from the conversion of testosterone to E, needless to say this conversion (aka-aromatase) is paramount for breast growth. By inhibiting DHT more T is free to bind to form estradiol... in other words the estradiol pathway will prevail. Breast growth has multiple signaling pathway possibilities, understanding just a few of those pathways are essential for development....for instance, regulatory and stem cell function.
(12-04-2019, 04:44 AM)Lotus Wrote:
(10-04-2019, 08:36 PM)sioctober Wrote:
(13-03-2019, 05:04 AM)Lotus Wrote:
(12-03-2019, 02:22 PM)Beverley50 Wrote:
(12-03-2019, 07:20 AM)Stevenator Wrote: Start a new thread ;-)


I second that!

A specific targeted thread, for us to learn from.

I would appreciate it since you are THE guru here Lotus.

Bev

(12-03-2019, 02:41 PM)julieTG Wrote: Lotus
certainly is

young,
super looks
highly intelligent
boobs to die for
x

quite a catch

lol

x

Julie



Thanks for the kind words friends. Bev, I don’t know if this post below specifically addresses what advise you were seeking, if not, please let me know.



Greetings,

So I was on nbe for about 2-3yrs and then HRT for 5 yrs. Currently, I don't take estradiol, my doctor determined I didn't need it anymore based on my history of blood tests. Both routes of delivery i took (oral and then IM intramuscular injections) sent my blood estradiol into the stratosphere, meaning my average blood test was between 700 pg/mL to 2200 pg/mL while on hrt. I had to assure my doctor on (many occasions) that I wasn't adding DIY meds, normally, gender docs want you under 200 pg/mL. It's been almost 4 months without E2, not easy to go cold Turkey, lol. I was prescribed the normal amounts of oral estradiol between 2mg-6mg of E2 and then .5 mL of IM intramuscular Injections. I liked how the injections made me feel to be quite honest, but there's a learning curve with self injection.

My last blood test revealed estradiol @ 275pg/mL and Testosterone 25 nd/dL, pretty close to normal....I was off E2 for approximately 5 weeks prior to the last test, the prior test was over 2200pg/mL.

When my doctor dropped the no E2 ban on me I felt like as if someone sucker punched me ? at first, panic set in, then disbelief, after about a minute it came to me, and I said to her:  " so you're saying I have the metabolism of a female "... to which she replies " fraid so ", well,  after hearing that, I immediately felt relief. I'll never forget the poignant way she said  "fraid so".

So this got me thinking about the total time I've been on NBE/HRT, and I say this in all seriousness, I haven't needed estrogen for the last five or six years lol... it just took that long to figure it out?, now that's crazy.

Having your E2 constantly in the stratosphere doesn't mean things go faster, in fact it dangerous. I'm talking about this now because I think it's worth telling people that you can do HRT or even nbe without all the added estrogen...so, exactly how, right?.

 I think anti-androgens crushed my T over the years to a point where its been running at 5 ng/dL for the last 5 yrs...basically zero. Too much E2 in my case made me feel lethargic and apathetic. My point I'm getting at (albiet slowly) is you can do nbe/HRT with no E2, just make sure your converting more T into E2 alongside using an effective anti-androgen, which for me that was Reishi for NBE and spiro/finasteride for HRT. I take spiro or finasteride a few times a week, that's about all I think I need at this point to keep things in balance. Don't get me wrong... I'm not singing Kumbaya going into the sunset just yet, I still miss the mental effects of having E2 on board, I just may RIP something off the f**king wall doing so because my T is at 25ng/dL, and for me that's significant.

Here's at pic taken today sitting down (post no E2 for 4 months), what do you think?

Hugs, L.


Thank you for this fantastic summary. From many years ago, I agreed with you that aromatase (T to E) was a big part of all this. You look great and I truly appreciate all the hard work and effort you have shared with all of us. I will continue to focus more on the converting part. Again thank you!


Hi sioctober,

 You're welcome, and thank you for the compliment. Smile I'm glad the information helped, good luck and happy growing.

P.s. In ovarian function, estradiol is derived from the conversion of testosterone to E, needless to say this conversion (aka-aromatase) is paramount for breast growth. By inhibiting DHT more T is free to bind to form estradiol... in other words the estradiol pathway will prevail. Breast growth has multiple signaling pathway possibilities, understanding just a few of those pathways are essential for development....for instance, regulatory and stem cell function.



Question, and maybe a dumb one, but what effect does taking DHEA do for your hormone levels overall Male to Female?
(13-04-2019, 12:17 AM)happyboobs Wrote: Question, and maybe a dumb one, but what effect does taking DHEA do for your hormone levels overall Male to Female?


Good question...imo DHEA is slighty similar to the way progesterone behaves. For women, a 10 mg dose seems to help slow aging, while in men a 50mg dose will increase Estrogen....but...DHEA can also increase T too. I've experimented with DHEA as a cream and had good results...orally?, I wanted to punch a hole in a wall from a dramatic increase in T, however, my T is usually in the cellar so only one thing is gonna happen there (increased T). 

DHEA should be used in short duration imo, it's unpredictable so be vigilant, for best results perhaps you should know what your blood testosterone levels are, I think T needs to be somewhere between 50 ng/dL to 100 ng/dL to see any benefit.

Take care.
I have been reading that bicalutimide 50mg will block T receptors, thus more free T is available for aromatase. The T levels increase, but no receptors. Whereas spiro simply blocks T. Dr Will Powers in MI is using this. Have you heard of this or have a comment? I do not think there is a lot of history or records on this.
(10-05-2019, 03:31 AM)sioctober Wrote: I have been reading that bicalutimide 50mg will block T receptors, thus more free T is available for aromatase. The T levels increase, but no receptors. Whereas spiro simply blocks T. Dr Will Powers in MI is using this. Have you heard of this or have a comment? I do not think there is a lot of history or records on this.


Hi Sioctober,

Apologies for the late response. I've posted many times in the past about having more free T available potentially creates a cascade of estrogen. The only problem is finding what works for the conversion, meaning everyone is different because of the varying degrees of individual metabolism. Now, I believe there's things in the NBE medicine cabinet to achieve the conversion of aromatase. The top in my mind is using second messengers, check the FAQ aromatase section for examples, personally?...I prefer glycosides. I'll add the following info below as an example though.

_________________________________________________

Remember-only hormones that detach from SHBG and Albumin are considered in the FREE state, about 2-5%, that's FREE testosterone and FREE estradiol, which will be available the bind with receptors and induce growth.

certain metabolic pathway that has direct impact on breast growth.

For instance, there's a specific agonist for a nongenomic pathway of sex steroid receptors that stimulates breast growth.

* Ginsenosides are a class of steroid glycosides, and triterpene saponins. Brilliant huh?...

cAMP-dependent signaling pathways (cyclic adenosine monophosphat).
COX2 inhibitors (PGE2), problematic
protein kinase A (PKA)
Free fatty acids

aromatase expression is switched to promoters I.3 and II which are transactivated by protein kinase A (PKA) and cAMP-dependent signaling pathways.

These are promoters genes for aromatase.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3142499/

history of high blood pressure, PCOS, HIGH cortisol, diabetes...latest blood work, any other complications, current meds and herbals.

Please read this study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2893180/

(Especially this section in the study)
Ginsenosides are agonists to steroidal receptors

Cortisol + glucocorticoids + cAMP = aromatase.

Now that's just the starting point, you'll also need a balanced gut PH, proper diet/exercise, and balanced hormones. 


These studies listed below sets forth the ground work that taking the aromatase we have in our system and combining it with a cAMP (second messenger....which is panax ginseng) and a glucocorticoid (vitamin D3) reaches the breast growth pathway in no uncertain terms. I'm not concerned all the low bioavailability of the Ginsenoside's in ginseng, you don't need alot...maybe 4-6% of standardized ginsenoside.

A balanced gut PH (which is about 7 to 7.5 ph) helps to metabolize drugs and herbs...prevents leaky gut syndrome.

Now a person with high stress might see a bigger impact using this formula. It's also possible that 30-35% users might not see results, ruling out certain metabolic conditions of course too.

beta blockers and PDE 5 inhibitors (E.D. aka erectile dysfunction drugs) works also in combination with ginseng by relaxing blood vessels and slowing heart rate...which  improve blood flow and decrease blood pressure.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article...o=0.471698


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22315456/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501869/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...rain_cells

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginsenoside

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3162649/
Big Grin
I've also written about that by reducing DHT it up-regulates estrogen receptors in the past. E1 plays a role in peripheral aromatization of androstenedione (that's through the A4 pathway), but...E2 is the strongest form of estrogen. I read Dr. Powers stated he thinks more E1 is needed in the intial phase of breast growth, and as we know PM acts more E1, perhaps why some see results on just using PM to begin with. Now to further breast growth through tanner 3 to 5 you need a combination of progesterone, prolactin, IGF-1, glucocorticoid, free fatty acids, collagen, thermogenic repsone  of hormone receptors, and a few other things.

From experience I've found that hyperinsulinaemia (too much glucose) has negative impact on breast growth. Evidence suggests this is the case in women with PCOS, which PCOS is hyperandrogenism....(a negative impact for breast growth) amongst stress and inflammation too a driving of PCOS, and stress decreases aromatase in ovarian cells, so...what does that tell yah.

E2 and E1 can be converted into each other, and both can be inactivated via hydroxylation and conjugation. E2 demonstrates 1.25 to 5 times the biological potency of E1. E2 circulates at 1.5 to 4 times the concentration of E1 in premenopausal, nonpregnant women.
(Mayo clinic).

Glucocorticoids increase androgen inactivation, I see resihi increases glucocorticoids to a degree thereby inactivatating androgens. Also, androgens, but not estrogens, increase beta adrenergic receptors while decreasing alpha adrenergic receptors- which results in increased levels of epinephrine/ norepinephrine due to lack of alpha-2 receptor negative feedback and decreased fat accumulation. In other words, epinephrine/ norepinephrine then act on lipolysis-inducing beta receptors.

So, one can say that by using beta blockers help with breast growth (by the above pathway) to liberate lipolysis for a thermogenic response. And from my experience this creates fullness in breast tissue (lol, mine).

And here's how:.
 β 2 AR activation increases the intracellular cyclic AMP levels that activate protein kinase A, which in turn promotes activation of hormone-sensitive lipase that catalyses the ratelimiting step in lipolysis.

Metformin, blood pressure meds, ACE inhibitors come to mind.

Hi Stevenator...
(15-05-2019, 03:44 AM)Lotus Wrote: I've also written about that by reducing DHT it up-regulates estrogen receptors in the past. E1 plays a role in peripheral aromatization of androstenedione (that's through the A4 pathway), but...E2 is the strongest form of estrogen. I read Dr. Powers stated he thinks more E1 is needed in the intial phase of breast growth, and as we know PM acts more E1, perhaps why some see results on just using PM to begin with. Now to further breast growth through tanner 3 to 5 you need a combination of progesterone, prolactin, IGF-1, glucocorticoid, free fatty acids, collagen, thermogenic repsone  of hormone receptors, and a few other things.

From experience I've found that hyperinsulinaemia (too much glucose) has negative impact on breast growth. Evidence suggests this is the case in women with PCOS, which PCOS is hyperandrogenism....(a negative impact for breast growth) amongst stress and inflammation too a driving of PCOS, and stress decreases aromatase in ovarian cells, so...what does that tell yah.

E2 and E1 can be converted into each other, and both can be inactivated via hydroxylation and conjugation. E2 demonstrates 1.25 to 5 times the biological potency of E1. E2 circulates at 1.5 to 4 times the concentration of E1 in premenopausal, nonpregnant women.
(Mayo clinic).

Glucocorticoids increase androgen inactivation, I see resihi increases glucocorticoids to a degree thereby inactivatating androgens. Also, androgens, but not estrogens, increase beta adrenergic receptors while decreasing alpha adrenergic receptors- which results in increased levels of epinephrine/ norepinephrine due to lack of alpha-2 receptor negative feedback and decreased fat accumulation. In other words, epinephrine/ norepinephrine then act on lipolysis-inducing beta receptors.

So, one can say that by using beta blockers help with breast growth (by the above pathway) to liberate lipolysis for a thermogenic response. And from my experience this creates fullness in breast tissue (lol, mine).

And here's how:.
 β 2 AR activation increases the intracellular cyclic AMP levels that activate protein kinase A, which in turn promotes activation of hormone-sensitive lipase that catalyses the ratelimiting step in lipolysis.

Metformin, blood pressure meds, ACE inhibitors come to mind.

Hi Stevenator...

Thank you very much - still reading - you are a very wonderful person to share with us. Si.
 

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