[BigBoobieBen]

Hey lotus welcome back hope your trip was good.

Steve and I were discussing things and the topic of dim 
I was looking into.it and all the reserch is far as I under stand said that in a t dominated system it down regulates estrogen? What would a good dosages be?  I'm not taking any AA to keep t up to help loose weight. Might consider WP later though.
 
Also I weighed my self and I know it's mostly water weight but I'm down 9 pounds sence last week.

[Stevenator_]

Jennifer,

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that she meant post # 4530 ... It’s towards the bottom of the page.

https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&page=453&highlight=Lotus+Plan

[Lotus]

Hey lotus welcome back hope your trip was good.

Steve and I were discussing things and the topic of dim 
I was looking into.it and all the reserch is far as I under stand said that in a t dominated system it down regulates estrogen? What would a good dosages be?  I'm not taking any AA to keep t up to help loose weight. Might consider WP later though.
 
Also I weighed my self and I know it's mostly water weight but I'm down 9 pounds sence last week.

Congrats Ben on the weight loss.

DIM shifts production of the dangerous estrogen metabolite 16-hydroxy in favor of the beneficial (or healthier) 2-hydroxy 2-OH metabolite

DIM inhibits DHT in prostate cancer, so if by default we're inhibiting DHT what would we suspect the overall outcome to happen next in Breast Tissue? 

"Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disrupter. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants."

Pay attention to this part... "estrogen agonist activities of DIM" (agoinst means it promotes, so DIM promotes estrogen while inhibiting DHT. 

[Lotus]

Jennifer,

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that she meant post # 4530 ... It’s towards the bottom of the page.

https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436&page=453&highlight=Lotus+Plan

Actually it was this page, mine says 4602, so whatever you see it's this: Apologies Jennifer 

Continuing the research, there's a strategy in using vitamin D3 and calcium (and actual relatable science) together in the Lotus NBE program, along with MSM that's been thought out very carefully that I'll share asap. But this first, vitamin D3 actually increases IGF-1, so as we worry about not getting enough IGF-1 for breast growth you've been getting if you've followed my plan…or taking 5,000iu to 7,000iu of vitamin D3 per day. Which is perfectly safe limits to take within these amounts.

Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults: potential implication for the treatment of GH deficiency
Pietro Ameri et al. Eur J Endocrinol. 2013
Abstract

Objectives: Previous studies suggested that vitamin D modulates circulating IGF1. We investigated this effect in adults and its clinical relevance in the management of GH deficiency (GHD).

Design and methods: IGF1 levels were prospectively measured before and after 12 weeks of treatment with oral vitamin D3 (5000 or 7000 IU/week) vs no intervention in 39 subjects 61.9±7.9 years old. The frequency of IGF1 values ≥50th age- and sex-specific percentile in relation to vitamin D status, as determined by the concentration of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), was retrospectively assessed in 69 GHD patients (57.4±16.6 years) on stable hormone replacement and with 25(OH)D and IGF1 concurrently measured.

Results: Treatment with 5000 and 7000 IU vitamin D3/week significantly raised 25(OH)D by 12.7±8.4 and 13.1±6.5 ng/ml respectively (both P<0.001 vs baseline). In the 7000 IU group, IGF1 levels also significantly increased by 31.3±36.7 ng/ml (P=0.01). Neither 25(OH)D nor IGF1 significantly varied in controls. IGF1 was ≥50th percentile more frequently in GHD patients with 25(OH)D levels ≥15 than <15 ng/ml(65.9 vs 40.0%, P<0.05). Logistic regression with adjustment for recombinant human GH (rhGH) dose, vitamin D supplements, gender, use of thyroid hormones, corticosteroids or estrogen/testosterone, and season revealed a significant positive association between ≥15 ng/ml 25(OH)D and IGF 1 ≥50th percentile (OR 4.4, 95% CI 1.0-18.8, P<0.05). A significant negative correlation between 25(OH)D concentrations and rhGH dose was found after correcting for age and IGF1 (β -0.042, P<0.01), but not after further adjusting for sex, thyroid, adrenal or gonadal replacement, and season (β -0.037, P=0.06).

Conclusions: Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults. As a result, a better vitamin D status may ease the achievement of normal IGF1 values in GHD.

Vitamin D regulates IGF1 concentrations in the liver, the main source of circulating IGF1

Pueraria mirifica @ 500-1500pm (daily)
Progesterone cream-⅛ teaspoon per breast (3-4 times per week)
MSM 1-3g per day. antioxidant, taking msm facilitates a pro-breast growth pathway called STAT5, it's a protein synthesizer, Meaning it helps raise growth hormone.
Vitamin D3 & Calcium, helps with breast growing. If you take Calcium you need V-D3 to become more biologically active. Source vitamin D3 with organic olive oil. 
Melatonin (dosage varies per person), taking this is going after REM and Deep sleep stages (@ body healing), and other things. 
Reishi extract-follow manufacturers dosing guidelines, the higher the polysaccharides the stronger anti-androgen. Like this one below, it's organic and 35% polysaccharides. 

Technically, MSM stimulates the stat5 pathway which facilitates phosphorylation and the nuclear translocation and DNA binding...in other words it helps with breast growth. MSM also stimulates prolactin and enhances GH (growth hormone)lol. 

[Lotus]

DIM is Diindolylmethane. It is an anticarcinogen and also improves estrogen metabolism. Plant-derived 3,3′-Diindolylmethane Is a Strong Androgen Antagonist in Human Prostate Cancer Cells* DIM is remarkably similar in conformational geometry and surface charge distribution to an established synthetic AR antagonist, although the atomic compositions of the two substances are quite different. Taken together with our published reports of the estrogen agonist activities of DIM, the present results establish DIM as a unique bifunctional hormone disruptor. To our knowledge, DIM is the first example of a pure androgen receptor antagonist from plants.

http://www.jbc.org/content/278/23/21136.full

From the study above on DIM I pulled certain paragraphs of information to highlight. Two main points: DIM inhibits DHT, and DIM is similar to Casodex, which is similar to ??? drum roll please: the prescription anti-androgen Bicalutamide. 

The effects of DIM on human prostate cancer cell growth were examined using LNCaP and PC-3 cells. After a 96-h treatment, DIM produced a concentration-dependent inhibition of LNCaP cell proliferation with maximal inhibition of 70% at 50 μm.

DIM strongly inhibited DHT induction of androgen-responsive genes by more than 50% at 1 μm and more than 90% at 10 μm in both promoter constructs 

Cyproterone acetate and Casodex, two well known antiandrogens, were used as positive controls. DIM and Casodex exhibited similar binding affinity for the AR.

Because both DIM and Casodex act as pure antiandrogens, we compared the structures of these ligands more closely.
the two ligands are remarkably similar in conformation despite their considerable difference in atomic compositions

DIM is remarkably similar in molecular geometry and surface charge distribution to the well established synthetic antiandrogen, Casodex. Our investigation, leads to the conclusion that DIM is a strong, pure androgen antagonist.

______________________________

The following is my analysis, or model of how DIM being a pro-aromatase, and it works following the CREB-binding protein

"Cyclic AMP response element binding protein (CREB) activates transcription of cAMP response element (CRE)-containing promoters following an elevation of intracellular cAMP"...which is basically a second messenger and if you've read this thread no doubt you've seen it posted many times lol, it's a pro-breast pathway once inside the cytoplasm. 

How it relates to DIM is the hormone receptors are transferred to common compartments located in the euchromatin region and form a complex with co-activators…I see a window, or an opening. And judging how the rat study below shows how the CYP1B1 cytochrome opens the door for enhanced E2 production I'm feeling more confident the window opening got a little bigger. 

The formation of these nuclear foci is thought to provide platforms for the interaction of nuclear receptor and co-activators (38). Liganded steroid hormone receptors are transferred to common compartments located in the euchromatin region and form a complex with co-activators, such as steroid receptor coactivator 1, transcriptional intermediary factor 2, and CREB-binding protein, which are also accumulated in the same subnuclear compartments. For the AR, CREB-binding protein was found to be essential for foci formation, and the process of compartmentalization is essential for full transactivation 
https://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(20)73423-X/fulltext

Dietary indole-3-carbinol promotes endometrial adenocarcinoma development in rats initiated with N -ethyl- N ′-nitro- N -nitrosoguanidine, with induction of cytochrome P450s in the liver and consequent modulation of estrogen metabolism 
https://academic.oup.com/carcin/article/...ogin=false

In the assays of estradiol hydroxylase activities in the liver, dietary I3C increased both 2- and 4-hydroxylase activities, in particular the latter. These results strongly suggest that the induction of the CYP 1 family by I3C is linked to modulation of E2 metabolism. 

Meaning DIM can enhance E2 production 

[Stevenator_]

Thank you

[Jennifer]

And so, the best natural source is broccoli?
And if I search for DIM in Amazon.fr what do you suggest I buy.

Thank you for all your research. 
And the presence and interventions of Steve and many others.

Jennifer

[Kay Lady]

I take DIM from a company called NutriCost that I ordered on Amazon. But I recently read an article about how there is a patent on a special version of DIM and a company called Nature's Way has that patent. I just placed an order for Nature's Way DIM-Plus on Amazon and waiting to receive it. I will look for that article about DIM and post it but I will have to search for it and I need to shower and get to work. 

Lotus, thank you for the DIM info! I have been taking DIM for a while but didn't know that it was such a prize supplement!

[Kay Lady]

Ok, I showered and dressed for work, but I did find where I read about DIM. It was a post in a hair loss forum. So it is not really an article from any medical testing just a reference to some information. I may do some digging later after work if I have time. So here is the reference and a link to the forum. Note some of the conversation on this forum is not from experts. Just saying.

" As a side note, for a long time DIM extracts were poorly absorbed by the body. Supposedly, a guy named Dr. Zeligs developed a formula that had better bioavailability and he has patented the technology to numerous supplement makers, including Nature's Way."

Link: https://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/th...-it.32157/

[Kay Lady]

I am back again about DIM. There is another brand that is supposed to be superior for absorption. It is called Bioresponse 150 and can be found on Amazon. Here is there website with explanation and it mentions Dr. Zelig M.D. :

https://www.bioresponse.com/advantages-bioresponse-dim/