10-01-2012, 01:25 PM
10-01-2012, 01:42 PM
I have also not seen anything much changing growth-wise for some time, but then again I'm not trying to change that. I have recently added fenugreek back to my diet (some days 500mg, some days 1000mg) for digestive benefit. It helps with my bowel. Perhaps it also adds a bit of rounding to my chest. I think it has also tightened up my nipples somewhat because they're a lot less puffy these days. I'm good with what I have achieved. I'm not looking to get bigger and I prefer smaller nipples for myself. I am still taking PM some days 500mg, some days 1000mg, not on any schedule. Just being a bit lazy about it all and paying attention to other things in my life more than this at the present time.
But I'm very happy to hear you are making progress towards your goals, Julie. I know it has been a tough haul getting it going. Your body seems to have decided to agree with your plans for it.
But I'm very happy to hear you are making progress towards your goals, Julie. I know it has been a tough haul getting it going. Your body seems to have decided to agree with your plans for it.
12-01-2012, 10:20 AM
One for you, and this will give Bryony some homework as sure she will check every word,
Love Julie
Progestogens:
The second hormone that is a part of a feminizing HRT regimen is a progestogen. Progestogens come in two basic forms, Progestins and Progesterone.
Progestins are synthetically produced. The main form used for feminizing HRT is Provera (medroxyprogesterone). Its original purpose was to help women shed the uterine lining at the end of their periods, in an attempt to relieve or prevent the symptoms of endometriosis (when the uterine lining is not completely shed it can cause adhesions & pain). While Provera can assist with some development of breast lobuloalveolar tissue, it does so only in a very limited way. Provera is molecularly similar to Testosterone, rather than Progesterone, so it exerts an androgenic effect which can inhibit mammary growth to a small degree. Provera is not progesterone and should not be considered one by doctors or patients. Often medroxyprogesterone is referred to as “the progesterone” on some brands of estrogen/progestogen combination medications. This is not the case, and patients should be very careful to read the ingredients of any combination medications a doctor may prescribe for feminizing HRT.
Provera has side effects that anyone taking it should be aware of, such as influencing the emotional state of the patient in various ways. Provera has a well-documented reputation for aggravating and/or causing depression, all too often to suicidal levels. Anyone who has ever had even mild depression should avoid Provera. It also has the effect of causing wild mood swings, from giddy highs to suicidal lows, with unpredictable emotional outbursts. Some doctors insist that these mood swings are natural for TS people to experience while on HRT, but it is not so. They are often the reactions to the influence of Provera.
Provera has a mild to moderate impact on liver stress, as it is a complex molecule, more similar to Testosterone than Progesterone and is difficult for the liver to process. Provera can cause some virirlization (masculinization) due to its similarity to Testosterone. It has a reputation for causing and aggravating stomach discomfort, so it is often taken with food to reduce such stress. Depo-Provera is the injectable form of Provera, and may reduce some impact on the liver and stomach, though the mood effects are not changed by the method of introduction.
Provera counters beneficial effects of estrogen on heart resulting in an increased health risk. Provera is also linked with a definitively higher risk of breast cancer for those taking it. Depo-Provera can cause visual disturbances. And the fact that it remains in the body for so long can be serious for people who experience adverse side-effects.
Progesterone is a naturally occurring hormone in the human body. HRT sources of progesterone are primarily produced by extracting progesterone from yams. The progesterone is micronized (chopped into microscopic particles) into a powder then usually suspended in peanut oil and inserted into caplets. There is an allergy concern for those people allergic to peanuts to not take progesterone suspended in the peanut oil (this may seem like common sense, but common sense isn’t all that common). The progesterone used in Canada and the USA, goes by the trade name Prometrium, while in Europe, it goes by the trade name Utrogestan. There are other forms of progesterone under other trade names, just be careful to make sure it is progesterone and not a synthetic progestin.
Progesterone is essential for proper lobuloalveolar development in TS women. Progestins just don’t stimulate this growth to any serious degree nor does an HRT regimen of strictly Estrogen therapy. It is normal for Progesterone to increase the size and darken the aureolas, increase the overall size of the nipples and help the breasts develop a fuller, rounder profile.
I found my own development was greatly enhanced when I switched from Provera to Prometrium. My breasts increased significantly in volume and filled out more in the first few months on Prometrium, than the previous 18 months on Provera. Other TS women I have talked to, tend to rave about the growth benefits of Prometrium as well. Prometrium increases breast lobuloalveolar development far in excess of what Provera can accomplish, regardless of the dose of Provera.
Second, there is compelling evidence to suggest that the presence of progesterone as part of an HRT regimen may reduce the risk of developing benign breast lumps and more malignant breast cancer. The risks for TS women developing breast cancer seem to be only slightly higher than that of males and significantly lower than the risk for natal women. The reason is that the monthly cycles that natal women go through is the primary reason for the increase in breast cancer risks. Only 4 cases of breast cancer in transsexuals have been reported in literature, however TS women who are deep stealth, refusing to admit to any TS history, who have had breast cancer, won’t have been included in these statistics. Being TS is NOT a “get out of jail free” card, when considering breast cancer risks.
A benefit of Prometrium, which is bioidentical to what is found in humans, over that of Provera, which is not bioidentical, is that Prometrium does not affect the liver or stomach. Prometrium is usually progesterone suspended in peanut oil (or other medium, or even encapsulated dry) neither of which triggers a first pass effect within the liver like oral estrogen does, eliminating the risk of liver stress. Simply put, the liver doesn’t trigger a poison response and treats the medication as food. Peanut oil in the Prometrium caplets increases absorption of the progesterone, and food can also help with absorption. Suppository and pessary (mentioned below) methods of introduction can slightly increase the volume of Progesterone available for the body to use, but are not necessary for safety reasons.
In some rare instances, even Progesterone (Prometrium was the drug reported being used), may aggravate or cause some depression, though this is exceptionally rare, and it does not do so to a degree remotely comparable to that of Provera.
ALLERGY ALLERT. Anyone allergic to peanuts can have Prometrium compounded with a different oil such as sesame or castor oil, or even have caplets made without any oil content.
Prometrium is usually taken orally, though it and other forms of progesterone may be administered by other methods such as suppository (inserted into the rectum), pessary (inserted into the vagina) and IM injection.
There are 2 main schools of thought regarding how to take Progestogens, particularly Progesterone. The first, is the constant method, where a dose of the medication is taken daily. This does work for some TS women quite effectively. However such continuous dosing of Progesterone can reduce the effectiveness of Estrogen slightly. The second method, which bypasses the reduction of effectiveness of estrogen is to cycle the intake of Progesterone. Cycles range from 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, to 3 weeks on, 1 week off and other on/off time limits. The best option is to try out a regimen for 2 to 3 months, see if it works for you and stick with it if it does. If it doesn’t work for you, alter it.
One effect of Prometrium that can be either a benefit or annoyance depends on the outlook of the patient. Prometrium has the effect of increasing the nesting instinct in TS women. The big benefit is that the TS patient may gain a very clean and well-decorated home due to this nesting instinct.
A note regarding comparable doses. 10 mg of Provera is equivalent to 100 mg of Prometrium as far as breast tissue development is concerned. The equivalent dose between Provera and Prometrium for the treatment of Endometriosis is 2.5 mg and 100 mg respectively. Provera is just not effective for the development of breast tissue, and was originally designed for the treatment of endometriosis. The pills are differently sized. Provera (10 mg) tablets are about the size of a shelled sunflower seed. Prometrium caplets (100 mg) are about the size of a pea.
While some doctors are unconvinced of the benefits of progestogens, the evidence indicates that progestogens do have benefits relating to breast lump and breast cancer prevention and assist with proper breast development. Managed carefully for liver stress and mental state, even Provera can be beneficial. The patient needs to be very aware of her reactions to all her medications and be prepared to change regimens to maintain her health.
This information is NOT intended as medical advice. It is merely information gathered over several years, regarding the safest and most effective regimens of feminizing hormone replacement therapy, provided so that each individual may approach her own feminizing hormone regimen as educated as possible. Simply put, the author takes no responsibility for the actions or regimens of other people on hormone therapy, as each person must be responsible for her own health. (AKA do what you want with this info, but remember that you are responsible for yourself & should make efforts to confirm any information contained above).
Copyright © 2010 Leslea Herber.
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU Free Documentation
Love Julie
Progestogens:
The second hormone that is a part of a feminizing HRT regimen is a progestogen. Progestogens come in two basic forms, Progestins and Progesterone.
Progestins are synthetically produced. The main form used for feminizing HRT is Provera (medroxyprogesterone). Its original purpose was to help women shed the uterine lining at the end of their periods, in an attempt to relieve or prevent the symptoms of endometriosis (when the uterine lining is not completely shed it can cause adhesions & pain). While Provera can assist with some development of breast lobuloalveolar tissue, it does so only in a very limited way. Provera is molecularly similar to Testosterone, rather than Progesterone, so it exerts an androgenic effect which can inhibit mammary growth to a small degree. Provera is not progesterone and should not be considered one by doctors or patients. Often medroxyprogesterone is referred to as “the progesterone” on some brands of estrogen/progestogen combination medications. This is not the case, and patients should be very careful to read the ingredients of any combination medications a doctor may prescribe for feminizing HRT.
Provera has side effects that anyone taking it should be aware of, such as influencing the emotional state of the patient in various ways. Provera has a well-documented reputation for aggravating and/or causing depression, all too often to suicidal levels. Anyone who has ever had even mild depression should avoid Provera. It also has the effect of causing wild mood swings, from giddy highs to suicidal lows, with unpredictable emotional outbursts. Some doctors insist that these mood swings are natural for TS people to experience while on HRT, but it is not so. They are often the reactions to the influence of Provera.
Provera has a mild to moderate impact on liver stress, as it is a complex molecule, more similar to Testosterone than Progesterone and is difficult for the liver to process. Provera can cause some virirlization (masculinization) due to its similarity to Testosterone. It has a reputation for causing and aggravating stomach discomfort, so it is often taken with food to reduce such stress. Depo-Provera is the injectable form of Provera, and may reduce some impact on the liver and stomach, though the mood effects are not changed by the method of introduction.
Provera counters beneficial effects of estrogen on heart resulting in an increased health risk. Provera is also linked with a definitively higher risk of breast cancer for those taking it. Depo-Provera can cause visual disturbances. And the fact that it remains in the body for so long can be serious for people who experience adverse side-effects.
Progesterone is a naturally occurring hormone in the human body. HRT sources of progesterone are primarily produced by extracting progesterone from yams. The progesterone is micronized (chopped into microscopic particles) into a powder then usually suspended in peanut oil and inserted into caplets. There is an allergy concern for those people allergic to peanuts to not take progesterone suspended in the peanut oil (this may seem like common sense, but common sense isn’t all that common). The progesterone used in Canada and the USA, goes by the trade name Prometrium, while in Europe, it goes by the trade name Utrogestan. There are other forms of progesterone under other trade names, just be careful to make sure it is progesterone and not a synthetic progestin.
Progesterone is essential for proper lobuloalveolar development in TS women. Progestins just don’t stimulate this growth to any serious degree nor does an HRT regimen of strictly Estrogen therapy. It is normal for Progesterone to increase the size and darken the aureolas, increase the overall size of the nipples and help the breasts develop a fuller, rounder profile.
I found my own development was greatly enhanced when I switched from Provera to Prometrium. My breasts increased significantly in volume and filled out more in the first few months on Prometrium, than the previous 18 months on Provera. Other TS women I have talked to, tend to rave about the growth benefits of Prometrium as well. Prometrium increases breast lobuloalveolar development far in excess of what Provera can accomplish, regardless of the dose of Provera.
Second, there is compelling evidence to suggest that the presence of progesterone as part of an HRT regimen may reduce the risk of developing benign breast lumps and more malignant breast cancer. The risks for TS women developing breast cancer seem to be only slightly higher than that of males and significantly lower than the risk for natal women. The reason is that the monthly cycles that natal women go through is the primary reason for the increase in breast cancer risks. Only 4 cases of breast cancer in transsexuals have been reported in literature, however TS women who are deep stealth, refusing to admit to any TS history, who have had breast cancer, won’t have been included in these statistics. Being TS is NOT a “get out of jail free” card, when considering breast cancer risks.
A benefit of Prometrium, which is bioidentical to what is found in humans, over that of Provera, which is not bioidentical, is that Prometrium does not affect the liver or stomach. Prometrium is usually progesterone suspended in peanut oil (or other medium, or even encapsulated dry) neither of which triggers a first pass effect within the liver like oral estrogen does, eliminating the risk of liver stress. Simply put, the liver doesn’t trigger a poison response and treats the medication as food. Peanut oil in the Prometrium caplets increases absorption of the progesterone, and food can also help with absorption. Suppository and pessary (mentioned below) methods of introduction can slightly increase the volume of Progesterone available for the body to use, but are not necessary for safety reasons.
In some rare instances, even Progesterone (Prometrium was the drug reported being used), may aggravate or cause some depression, though this is exceptionally rare, and it does not do so to a degree remotely comparable to that of Provera.
ALLERGY ALLERT. Anyone allergic to peanuts can have Prometrium compounded with a different oil such as sesame or castor oil, or even have caplets made without any oil content.
Prometrium is usually taken orally, though it and other forms of progesterone may be administered by other methods such as suppository (inserted into the rectum), pessary (inserted into the vagina) and IM injection.
There are 2 main schools of thought regarding how to take Progestogens, particularly Progesterone. The first, is the constant method, where a dose of the medication is taken daily. This does work for some TS women quite effectively. However such continuous dosing of Progesterone can reduce the effectiveness of Estrogen slightly. The second method, which bypasses the reduction of effectiveness of estrogen is to cycle the intake of Progesterone. Cycles range from 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, to 3 weeks on, 1 week off and other on/off time limits. The best option is to try out a regimen for 2 to 3 months, see if it works for you and stick with it if it does. If it doesn’t work for you, alter it.
One effect of Prometrium that can be either a benefit or annoyance depends on the outlook of the patient. Prometrium has the effect of increasing the nesting instinct in TS women. The big benefit is that the TS patient may gain a very clean and well-decorated home due to this nesting instinct.
A note regarding comparable doses. 10 mg of Provera is equivalent to 100 mg of Prometrium as far as breast tissue development is concerned. The equivalent dose between Provera and Prometrium for the treatment of Endometriosis is 2.5 mg and 100 mg respectively. Provera is just not effective for the development of breast tissue, and was originally designed for the treatment of endometriosis. The pills are differently sized. Provera (10 mg) tablets are about the size of a shelled sunflower seed. Prometrium caplets (100 mg) are about the size of a pea.
While some doctors are unconvinced of the benefits of progestogens, the evidence indicates that progestogens do have benefits relating to breast lump and breast cancer prevention and assist with proper breast development. Managed carefully for liver stress and mental state, even Provera can be beneficial. The patient needs to be very aware of her reactions to all her medications and be prepared to change regimens to maintain her health.
This information is NOT intended as medical advice. It is merely information gathered over several years, regarding the safest and most effective regimens of feminizing hormone replacement therapy, provided so that each individual may approach her own feminizing hormone regimen as educated as possible. Simply put, the author takes no responsibility for the actions or regimens of other people on hormone therapy, as each person must be responsible for her own health. (AKA do what you want with this info, but remember that you are responsible for yourself & should make efforts to confirm any information contained above).
Copyright © 2010 Leslea Herber.
Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.2 or any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; with no Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts. A copy of the license is included in the section entitled "GNU Free Documentation
12-01-2012, 12:39 PM
(12-01-2012, 10:20 AM)julieTG Wrote: One for you, and this will give Bryony some homework as sure she will check every word,
Love Julie
I will, but I've got to get some work done - I'm not the boss!
I'm not too interested in Progesterone, as it doesn't figure in my plans, so I'm not sure how much help I'd be - Chrishoney has quite a bit to say about it though, as I discovered when I circulated a paper that I found on the GIRES(?) site. http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=10457
The only points I want to make are (a) there is talk about "natural" versus "synthetic" progesterone. As far as I can make out, "natural" refers to the actual chemical, Progesterone, because it occurs in the body, and "synthetic" refers to the chemical "Progestin" because it does not, though it used by the medical (orthodoxy) profession (to screw up people's lives). (b) There does not appear to be any herbal source of progesterone; Wild Yam and soy have to undergo chemical treatment in order to convert their precursor molecules into progesterone. So a "natural" Progesterone still needs to be "synthesized".
In the end, microgest is a synthesized chemical, identical to that produced by women, but there is no associated local history to prove its safety, unlike PM eaten as a vegetable for generations with no ill effects.
So, unlike HRT treatment for women, where Progesterone levels are monitored by doctors, this is self-medication, in spades. Yes, there will be an oral history from TSs who care to write up their subjective experiences on boards like these (over a much shorter period of time - the internet has only been around commercially for about 10 years, and how long has microgest been around?) and there will be doctors who will pontificate about their experiences with dosing up TSs (as part of the orthodoxy), but there are a lot of "unknown unknowns".
The main one being: who really knows what effects on the brain are caused by adding progesterone into the mix of the estrogen mimics? (A radical increase in libido seems a possibility, but is this necessarily a good thing?
)As far as I can see, it's a risk. With PM, the benefits outweigh the risks (for me). At the very least, I'd recommend caution and take the smallest dose that provides an agreeable effect.
B.
12-01-2012, 02:03 PM
Not saying your not right on that one,
I have been in comms now with 6 ts girls who use Microgest,
NO side effects reported,
5 had lift in mood, 1 the same
4 larger growth and fast , massivley increased nipple senstivity,
all 6 reported to me much larger nipples
Julie
I have been in comms now with 6 ts girls who use Microgest,
NO side effects reported,
5 had lift in mood, 1 the same
4 larger growth and fast , massivley increased nipple senstivity,
all 6 reported to me much larger nipples
Julie
12-01-2012, 06:00 PM
My understanding is that progesterone in Microgest is what is known as "nature identical" in that it has exactly the same chemical formula and structure as progesterone produced naturally in the body.
Progestins OTOH are synthetic chemicals which are similar in structure/composition, and which therefore bind to the same sites and have similar effects but which are chemically different and therefore have other less welcome effects as well - as a very simplistic illustration, it's a bit like sodium chloride and potassium chloride, both taste salty but they have different effects in the body ( sodium chloride is ordinary everyday 'salt' in case anyone doesn't know).
Hope this clarifies things a bit?
Whether anyone wants to go taking Microgest, or not, is a different matter.
Progestins OTOH are synthetic chemicals which are similar in structure/composition, and which therefore bind to the same sites and have similar effects but which are chemically different and therefore have other less welcome effects as well - as a very simplistic illustration, it's a bit like sodium chloride and potassium chloride, both taste salty but they have different effects in the body ( sodium chloride is ordinary everyday 'salt' in case anyone doesn't know).
Hope this clarifies things a bit?
Whether anyone wants to go taking Microgest, or not, is a different matter.
12-01-2012, 08:53 PM
(12-01-2012, 06:00 PM)Pansy-Mae Wrote: My understanding is that progesterone in Microgest is what is known as "nature identical" in that it has exactly the same chemical formula and structure as progesterone produced naturally in the body.
Progestins OTOH are synthetic chemicals which are similar in structure/composition, and which therefore bind to the same sites and have similar effects but which are chemically different and therefore have other less welcome effects as well - as a very simplistic illustration, it's a bit like sodium chloride and potassium chloride, both taste salty but they have different effects in the body ( sodium chloride is ordinary everyday 'salt' in case anyone doesn't know).
Hope this clarifies things a bit?
Whether anyone wants to go taking Microgest, or not, is a different matter.
Yes - that's what I was driving at. However, the point I was making was that all forms of Progesterone or Progestin ("natural" vs "synthetic") have to be produced in a lab, as there are no naturally occurring herbal progesterones, only precursors which women can use (presumably) to manufacture it internally, but men cannot.
Hence, the more important point is that there is no "natural" herbal tradition associated around progesterone, and therefore there is an additional (unquantifiable) risk attached.
All herbal experimentation is at an "own risk" basis, but I feel a lot more comfortable eating something like PM or Maca which have both been sources of native nutrition for ages.
Progesterone, on the other hand, is what Julie calls a "hard" hormone.
It's the real deal, and a very real form of self-medication.
I think it's stretching the bounds of the definition of "natural" as in "natural breast enlargement", because the only source of progesterone is a synthesised pharmaceutical product, and is as "natural" as Premarin. Precursors extracted from Wild Yam and Soya and then modified in a lab is no more natural to me than Mare's urine subsequently treated in a lab.
Both "natural" but is it NBE? nah.
"Natural" to me means breast enlargement by natural means, ie. stretching the tissues by vacuum or massage, or by ingesting food supplements.
Only my opinion, but there it is.
B.
12-01-2012, 09:07 PM
Bryony
For once your wrong
Pm is also produced in a lab , ie a standardised extract, Unless you go for whole root, then you have quality or compliance guarantee.
Microgest is similar it is condensed down in a similar way then encapsulated too and at a pharmaceutical standard.
Julie
For once your wrong
Pm is also produced in a lab , ie a standardised extract, Unless you go for whole root, then you have quality or compliance guarantee.
Microgest is similar it is condensed down in a similar way then encapsulated too and at a pharmaceutical standard.
Julie
(12-01-2012, 09:07 PM)julieTG Wrote: Bryony
For once your wrong
Pm is also produced in a lab , ie a standardised extract, Unless you go for whole root, then you have quality or compliance guarantee.
Microgest is similar it is condensed down in a similar way then encapsulated too and at a pharmaceutical standard.
Julie
Not totally true Julie because you are leaving out the fact that the progesterone has to be physically manufactured in a lab, before it can be micronised and encapsulated. As Bryony says, there is no plant source of progesterone itself.
However, there is an an argument both ways about taking it and in the end it comes down to personal views.
Aspirin, Ibuprofen and countless other drugs are produced in a lab by adding A to B then removing C to to produce D.
In principle that is no different to extracting Diosgenin from WY and treating it to produce progesterone.
Aspirin for all of its undoubted benefits in curing aches and pains and thinning the blood for heart patients also causes stomach haemorages. Nature identical Progesterone is used medically to help post-menopausal women, for many years as a topical cream, and more recently in micronised form.
OK it hasn't been around as long as PM or even aspirin, but taken in moderation it appears to be 'safe'. That cannot be said for Progestins, which do have medically acknowledged and documented negative side effects, so there is a clear difference between Progesterone and Progestins.
To go back to my very simplistic previous example.. you can get salt from countless 'natural' sources... mines, where it is contaminated by whatever in the ground... the sea where it is contaminated by things I don't want to even contemplate... or you can make it in the lab easily enough from very simple ingredients ( come to that, many years ago I had to actually make aspirin as part of my A Level Chemistry practical exam, that isn't difficult either). Whatever the source it needs to be cleaned and purified, but aside from that, the lab manufactured version of salt is identical in every respect to the natural stuff.
So as I said, it comes down to personal choice but at the mo, as far as I know there is no valid argument for not taking it in moderation and within advised limits, if an individual feels like it.
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