[Apple]

Hi all,
I'm new to this very nice forum and would like to ask you a question about PM. Few months ago, I've been taking Ainterol PM, just a low dose of 500 mg/day, along with 500 mg/day of SP. After mere 13 days, my nipples were sore and about 1.5x the original size. Few days later, I was already able to feel hard buds beneath the nipples, about 1-1.5" in diameter...

How unusal (if at all) is it to experience such a quick effect of such a low dose? I guess my testosterone is naturally low (thankfully, judging by minimal beard and body hair in comparison to my family), so that might play a role.

Thank you in advance for any comments!

[flamesabers]

Hello.

I suspect one of two things have happened. Either you're experiencing some temporary swelling, or you had prior development of breast tissue you weren't aware of. Regardless of your testosterone level, it takes time for the body to develop breast tissue. Think of genetic females going through puberty; they naturally have a low testosterone level and none of them develop breasts overnight.

[Apple]

Hi flamesabers, thank you for your reply. It is true that during my puberty (I'm 30 now), I have had some liquid seeping through my nipples and staining shirts. However, when taking PM, I have also found out that after 20 days on 500 mg/day, my testicles shrank to about 1/2 to 3/2 their original size. How uncommon would you consider that?

Anyway, that was the point when I stopped taking PM, because I had concluded that at least for me, PM is too strong to be played with on my own. Not because I would dislike the shrinking itself, but because I believe there are some dangers in HRT and it is a good idea to have some medical oversight. I'm seeing a doctor now regarding being TS.

It is also funny that those nipples required two months without PM to stop being sore and just one or two tablets of PM last week was enough for them to become sore again, making running down the stairs somewhat uncomfortable

[Marina Kits]

It's nice to hear from you Apple. Not sure if or how long you've been present in this forum but I'm glad you decided to ask a question and join the conversation.

I too have been debating a talk with my general physician. Pueraria mirifica unquestionably has an effect on me and it only seems prudent that my doctor or at least SOME doctor should be be looking out for me. I only hesitate for a couple reasons. I highly doubt my doctor would know anything about PM and whatever research he did do, assuming he would do any, is probably available to me via the internet. I realize however that he might understand the technical aspects of it better than I do and therefore might see things I don't. The other concern I have is simply having that particular information about myself in my medical records for "all" to see. I'm not sure I want to be stereotyped and categorized by all future doctors I need to see as... whatever one who takes PM is stereotyped and categorized as.

As for your other questions Apple, I could only speculate so I'd rather not try to answer them for you. You appear to be taking responsibility for yourself and your actions and if you feel most comfortable under the oversight of a doctor, I commend you for doing so and would love to hear what he or she tells you. Please report back with anything that might help those of us who aren't ready to take that step.

[MonikaT]

Apple,

Given how quickly you've responded to PM, I would wonder what your testosterone level is. I would also wonder if you're genetically XY and not some other genetic configuration such as Klinefelter's syndrome, though there are others, especially since you say you are TS.

[Misty0732]

Hi Apple,

I also saw an incredibly fast reaction to taking PM. My T level is normal but on the low side of normal. An interesting thing about me, however, is that my "Free-T" is virtually non-existent and would be considered low even for a genetic female.

I'm on 1500 mg/day now and that's where I will probably stay. At this level I'm very "happy" with myself. Both going lower and going higher makes my anxiety and gender dysphoria increase.

I'm a bit older than you, and married with adult children. Hence I'm not so concerned about possible side effects. At your age I would recommend caution and I think you're doing the right thing to inform your doctor. Both PM and HRT can render you infertile so it's best to know for certain where you are before continuing down this path.

Best,

Misty

[aleah]

I had a similar effect, my T has always been low and my endo was surprised my serum T was in the well below male average and free T was borderline low for male before I started HRT, specifically Spiro.

I definitely believe PM had an anti-androgen effect, I took it for 8 months roughly before starting HRT. And my T when to zero in less than 4 months on HRT, which is very quick!

I did notice slight budding and enlarged nipples on PM, I was on like 3g/day dose by the end. Also I do believe some people do get a strong response to PM due to sensitive estrogen receptors.. because it is very similar to the active form of estrogen, ethinyl estradiol. Which is what is prescribed in HRT too often (sometimes just oestradiol though) and similar reactions happen too.

If you are a TS like myself and are considering HRT and full transition, being on PM for a while beforehand isn't such a bad thing. I considered it like starting mild hormones early and gave me time to work through my transgender feelings before deciding to fully transition.. I'd recommend everyone considering transition to start on it

But do consult a professional!

[chrishoney]

Also I do believe some people do get a strong response to PM due to sensitive estrogen receptors.. because it is very similar to the active form of estrogen, ethinyl estradiol. Which is what is prescribed in HRT too often (sometimes just oestradiol though) and similar reactions happen too.

I just want to point out that ethinyl estradiol is NOT the active form of estrogen naturally occurring in humans. It is the first orally active semisynthetic steroidal estrogen, and was first synthesized in 1938. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinyl_estradiol)

It is a very potent form of synthetic estrogen, but is extremely nasty stuff, at least in terms of its side effects. It should be avoided at all cost. Among other deleterious side effects, this is from a long-term study of MTF transexuals published in 2011:

Current, but not past ethinyl estradiol use was associated with an independent threefold increased risk of cardiovascular death.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf


If a physician is still prescribing this for transition, you would be well advised to find another doctor.

[aleah]

Also I do believe some people do get a strong response to PM due to sensitive estrogen receptors.. because it is very similar to the active form of estrogen, ethinyl estradiol. Which is what is prescribed in HRT too often (sometimes just oestradiol though) and similar reactions happen too.

I just want to point out that ethinyl estradiol is NOT the active form of estrogen naturally occurring in humans. It is the first orally active semisynthetic steroidal estrogen, and was first synthesized in 1938. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethinyl_estradiol)

It is a very potent form of synthetic estrogen, but is extremely nasty stuff, at least in terms of its side effects. It should be avoided at all cost. Among other deleterious side effects, this is from a long-term study of MTF transexuals published in 2011:

Current, but not past ethinyl estradiol use was associated with an independent threefold increased risk of cardiovascular death.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf


If a physician is still prescribing this for transition, you would be well advised to find another doctor.

Thanks for that but I said nothing about it being naturally occuring. It is active nonetheless, I was just pointing out that estrogen sensitivity can cause quick reactions. Also interestingly enough, the main active compound in PM is pharmacollogically very similar to ethinyl estradiol in particular.

It's still used in most MTFs here in Australia and I know several who have used it for a few years and is still the standard pregnancy pill.. also the standard dosage is 30ug/day, not 100ug/day as mentioned in the baseline of the study, which is probably why it is considered safe.

We actually don't have Oestradiol in tablet form here in Queensland, only a weak patch form, so there really isn't much choice if we want to have medical oversight.

"The increased mortality in
MtF in the 25–39 years of age group (SMR 4.47; 95% CI:
4.04–4.92) was mainly due to the relatively high
numbers of suicides (in six), drugs-related death
(in four), and death due to AIDS (in 13 subjects)."

"In this large cohort with a median follow-up of more
than 18 years, we observed in MtF transsexual subjects
a 51% relatively increased mortality rate compared
with the general male population, mainly due to
increased rates of death from suicide, illicit drugs,
AIDS, cardiovascular disease, and unknown causes."

Which has very little to do with the estrogen prescribed, most legit TS patient will find an improvement in mental health on any estrogen, like I did. Also doesn't clearly differentiate on anti-androgen use in the baseline which is the real mental health concern while mentioning the higher suicide rates of Cypro users.. Cypro is known to cause suicidal tendencies while Spiro is far safer and the standard anti-androgen of choice.

It is well known that any estrogen can contribute to DVT risk, might be higher in the case of ethinyl estradiol. Maintaining good cardiovascular health is an important part of any HRT regime as any good doctor will tell you. But for healthy young subjects, the risk is negligible with ethinyl estradiol, especially if being monitored by a medical practitioner.

[Apple]

Thanks for all your comments. Looks like an unusually quick reaction is usually connected with unusual hormone levels. I have an appointment with an endocrinologist in the end of June, so we will see then!