"Ere the question, comes the background. 10 days ago, my wife and I had blood drawn to check cholesterol. I thought. 7 vials, and a full range of tests later, I got my results yesterday. Last item, Testerone level. Of a reccomended range of 241-827, I have a whopping 20.
Totally ignoring my "projections", she offered the required: are you tired? Are you weak? Would you like to raise it? I could give you some shots? NO, No, No, No.
Now, that explains why from neck down, the hair has all but ceased growing. I was rather curious about why. No longer.
My question, based on anyones' experience, if they have gotten this low, is: will this begin to climb if I cease the SP or the Cypro that I am currently taking? I take 450 mg SP (2/day) and 25 mg Cypro ( 2/day). Or, would it be better to lower it to half that amount? Also, is there any chance that it's permanent right where it's at now, and I could leave it out completely? My reasoning tells me that there may be some maintenance dose involved, and that half of each, or only using one and dropping one may do the job. (Alas, poor Willy, I knew thee well!)
I won't drop the Estros, either way, at least not yet.
Totally ignoring my "projections", she offered the required: are you tired? Are you weak? Would you like to raise it? I could give you some shots? NO, No, No, No.
Now, that explains why from neck down, the hair has all but ceased growing. I was rather curious about why. No longer.
My question, based on anyones' experience, if they have gotten this low, is: will this begin to climb if I cease the SP or the Cypro that I am currently taking? I take 450 mg SP (2/day) and 25 mg Cypro ( 2/day). Or, would it be better to lower it to half that amount? Also, is there any chance that it's permanent right where it's at now, and I could leave it out completely? My reasoning tells me that there may be some maintenance dose involved, and that half of each, or only using one and dropping one may do the job. (Alas, poor Willy, I knew thee well!)
I won't drop the Estros, either way, at least not yet.
Hiya,
Firstly, I've never heard of Cypro, so I googled it and came up with an anti-histamine drug used to treat food allergies. If that's what you are taking then I don't see that it is likely to have any bearing on T levels, personally.
Secondly, as far as I understand it, SP doesn't stop the actual production of T, instead it blocks the conversion of T into DHT. DHT blocks the oestrogen receptors, so by preventing that process, you allow the oestrogen in your supplements to have somewhere to work on ( and excess T is naturally converted to E, so you get a double effect from blocking DHT production).
On that basis, a low T count would appear to be independent of anything that you are taking. However I'm not sure whether a T count that low means that every last molecule will be converted straight to DHT ( in which case SP would be vital) or whether that mechanism has also packed up in which case the SP is pointless!
FWIW, and this is entirely anecdotal, advancing age seems to lower the need for SP. Quite a few of us have grown significantly using PM without any SP or taking it only occasionally, and I think we are all in the older age bracket.
I have no idea what my T levels are, I've never had them checked.
Don't know if this helps at all!
Firstly, I've never heard of Cypro, so I googled it and came up with an anti-histamine drug used to treat food allergies. If that's what you are taking then I don't see that it is likely to have any bearing on T levels, personally.
Secondly, as far as I understand it, SP doesn't stop the actual production of T, instead it blocks the conversion of T into DHT. DHT blocks the oestrogen receptors, so by preventing that process, you allow the oestrogen in your supplements to have somewhere to work on ( and excess T is naturally converted to E, so you get a double effect from blocking DHT production).
On that basis, a low T count would appear to be independent of anything that you are taking. However I'm not sure whether a T count that low means that every last molecule will be converted straight to DHT ( in which case SP would be vital) or whether that mechanism has also packed up in which case the SP is pointless!
FWIW, and this is entirely anecdotal, advancing age seems to lower the need for SP. Quite a few of us have grown significantly using PM without any SP or taking it only occasionally, and I think we are all in the older age bracket.
I have no idea what my T levels are, I've never had them checked.
Don't know if this helps at all!
This post was last modified: 02-12-2011, 08:19 AM by Pansy-Mae.
Hello,
Every bit of info helps. To be clear, I was speaking of Cyproterone Acetate, an anti-androgen. I abbreviated it a bit. Sorry for the confusion. I agree, age has a great effect on a great many things. I also give credit to the various anti-andros that I have tried. The fellas have decidely decreased in size, and occasionally have to be prodded to come out of hiding. A year and a half ago, this wasn't the case.
I hadn't intended to have it checked, wouldn't quite have known how to ask without seeming to admit to some sort of problem. However, glad she did. Now it's not on me, and I can feel free to brush it off.
You are correct, SP simply stops the conversion to DHT. At the T level I have, it's probably not a concern. By the way, at my age, 61, a level between 200-300 is considered hypogonadal, and thus the requirement for the doc to give me "counseling". Perhaps I should get the shots, so there would be more T to be converted to E? But, it would probably be synthetic, and would it convert the same? At a level of 20, I wonder how big the syringe would be to bring it up. 1/2 Liter?? PJ
Every bit of info helps. To be clear, I was speaking of Cyproterone Acetate, an anti-androgen. I abbreviated it a bit. Sorry for the confusion. I agree, age has a great effect on a great many things. I also give credit to the various anti-andros that I have tried. The fellas have decidely decreased in size, and occasionally have to be prodded to come out of hiding. A year and a half ago, this wasn't the case.
I hadn't intended to have it checked, wouldn't quite have known how to ask without seeming to admit to some sort of problem. However, glad she did. Now it's not on me, and I can feel free to brush it off.
You are correct, SP simply stops the conversion to DHT. At the T level I have, it's probably not a concern. By the way, at my age, 61, a level between 200-300 is considered hypogonadal, and thus the requirement for the doc to give me "counseling". Perhaps I should get the shots, so there would be more T to be converted to E? But, it would probably be synthetic, and would it convert the same? At a level of 20, I wonder how big the syringe would be to bring it up. 1/2 Liter?? PJ
(02-12-2011, 09:01 AM)PattiJT Wrote: Hello,
Every bit of info helps. To be clear, I was speaking of Cyproterone Acetate, an anti-androgen. I abbreviated it a bit. Sorry for the confusion. I agree, age has a great effect on a great many things. I also give credit to the various anti-andros that I have tried. The fellas have decidely decreased in size, and occasionally have to be prodded to come out of hiding. A year and a half ago, this wasn't the case.
I hadn't intended to have it checked, wouldn't quite have known how to ask without seeming to admit to some sort of problem. However, glad she did. Now it's not on me, and I can feel free to brush it off.
You are correct, SP simply stops the conversion to DHT. At the T level I have, it's probably not a concern. By the way, at my age, 61, a level between 200-300 is considered hypogonadal, and thus the requirement for the doc to give me "counseling". Perhaps I should get the shots, so there would be more T to be converted to E? But, it would probably be synthetic, and would it convert the same? At a level of 20, I wonder how big the syringe would be to bring it up. 1/2 Liter?? PJ
You might want to consider the other 'wonder' thai herb, Butea Superba.
I'm waiting to hear back from Ainterol about the advisability (or not) of taking it with PM.
I have seen research papers which have found that, whereas it has no effect on T levels on orchiectomies, it did have an effect where the T-production organs were present, and it did have an effect on E.D. patients. The theory in the conclusion was that it worked synergistically with the T-production mechanism to cause levels to raise.
The advantage is that it is natural, coming from a root used by the Thai people for generations, so bad effects would be well known.
(What is it about Thai vegetation?)
If you are interested, I can dig out the reference.
B.
Hi Patty,
Because the cyproterone acetate and the SP inhibit 5α-reductase, aromatase makes lots of estrogens from free testosterone. The anterior pituitary gland measures the total count of sex hormones, concludes it's high, since you are supplementing estrogens too, and stops making Luteinizing Hormone (LH). The testes react to that signal by shutting down the production of testosterone. The longer you supplement, the lower testosterone will drop.
There is a point where it becomes dangerous. Osteoporosis is one risk, and you need DHT to build the resistance against stress. Between 10 and 15 years after GRS, Dutch TSs show unusually high mortality, mainly because of suicide, aids, and drugs.
A gender clinic would conclude it's time for surgery, and after that, stop estrogen supplementation. Estrogens can cause depression too.
For legal reasons, Dutch TSs get 100 mg of cyproterone acetate. I always thought that's a lot. About 25 mg, I don't know, but a common dose among TGs here is 10 mg. TSs don't like going that low, because after all the IPL and the electrolysis, they hate seeing even a few chin hairs come back. They prefer to just let free T slump, because they hate muscle growth too.
So there's no consensus. I and other TGs think you can reduce cypro, and the medical tradition is GRS and stopping estrogens. There is no literature about the long term consequences of using the cypro dose to steer it.
My strictly personal opinion is that the big problem with cypro is that it's a powerful progestin too. As long as you take it, you simply have to balance it with estrogens, because you'll suffer from progesterone dominance if you don't.
Because of this, you are in a catch 22. Free T is too low. There will be consequences. You have to let it increase. But you don't want the chin hair, so you increase cypro. But that makes you progesterone dominant. So you increase estrogens. but that will shut down LH, and decrease free T.
The typical solution in an herbal program is to use a 5α-reductase inhibiting herb that contains no phyto-progestins.
Because the cyproterone acetate and the SP inhibit 5α-reductase, aromatase makes lots of estrogens from free testosterone. The anterior pituitary gland measures the total count of sex hormones, concludes it's high, since you are supplementing estrogens too, and stops making Luteinizing Hormone (LH). The testes react to that signal by shutting down the production of testosterone. The longer you supplement, the lower testosterone will drop.
There is a point where it becomes dangerous. Osteoporosis is one risk, and you need DHT to build the resistance against stress. Between 10 and 15 years after GRS, Dutch TSs show unusually high mortality, mainly because of suicide, aids, and drugs.
A gender clinic would conclude it's time for surgery, and after that, stop estrogen supplementation. Estrogens can cause depression too.
For legal reasons, Dutch TSs get 100 mg of cyproterone acetate. I always thought that's a lot. About 25 mg, I don't know, but a common dose among TGs here is 10 mg. TSs don't like going that low, because after all the IPL and the electrolysis, they hate seeing even a few chin hairs come back. They prefer to just let free T slump, because they hate muscle growth too.
So there's no consensus. I and other TGs think you can reduce cypro, and the medical tradition is GRS and stopping estrogens. There is no literature about the long term consequences of using the cypro dose to steer it.
My strictly personal opinion is that the big problem with cypro is that it's a powerful progestin too. As long as you take it, you simply have to balance it with estrogens, because you'll suffer from progesterone dominance if you don't.
Because of this, you are in a catch 22. Free T is too low. There will be consequences. You have to let it increase. But you don't want the chin hair, so you increase cypro. But that makes you progesterone dominant. So you increase estrogens. but that will shut down LH, and decrease free T.
The typical solution in an herbal program is to use a 5α-reductase inhibiting herb that contains no phyto-progestins.
This post was last modified: 02-12-2011, 11:26 PM by Isabelle.
Hi Isabelle,
everything you just said confirms my gut instinct in trying to dissuade (until/unless they tell me to go away, of course) people from GRS unless they really, really want to have sex with a man as a woman does. I just don't understand why else they'd go through all that pain and suffering.
I do understand your tagline though.
B.
everything you just said confirms my gut instinct in trying to dissuade (until/unless they tell me to go away, of course) people from GRS unless they really, really want to have sex with a man as a woman does. I just don't understand why else they'd go through all that pain and suffering.
I do understand your tagline though.
B.
Thanks so much Isabelle & Bryony,
As usual, answers breed more questions. First let me ease any concerns either of you may have as to my final destination. I have absolutely NO TS inclinations. Besides being extremely follicularly-challenged pate-wise, there is the matter of my wife. Although some time back she out of the blue asked if I planned on any (slight) surgery, and said it was OK with her, I have nixed that idea. Don't need the complications that would bring, and am quite satisfied with playing the dressing charade for her and myself. Will put more on a separate thread later about our relationship, as you may find it rather interesting and unusual. Somewhere on the TG spectrum would be my position.
Now, I feel like I will reduce the Cypro to 1/4 tab (approx 12.5 mg) in the evening, and lower Premarin to 1 .625mg twice per day, and reduce PM to 1000mg twicw per day. Another option would be to lose the Cypro, and go to 1 or 2 450mg SP per day. Does any of that approach a logical choice? If it works, then when the Premarin runs out, I'll go solely with SP. I'll plan on another round of tests in 3 months and see if the T has risen. I also feel 20 is too low, and really don't feel alarmed about a few chin hairs. A really close shave in the shower lasts a good enough while for my purposes.
Maybe "dressing charade" was a poor choice of terms. It's much more than that. A true expression of part of who I feel I am, but held to a reasonable level, as I know my limits, and accept the confines I have been dealt. Many years and too much water under the bridge to go beyond the few modifications in progress. Cannot begin to imagine going thru the atom-splitting that SRS would involve.
I'm not a "fantasist", and if it ever appears so, just slap me upside the head. 25 years ago, I may have leaned to more extreme changes, but being a single parent with custody, and doing so for the last 12 years of my Army career, dictated otherwise. Weep not, I have a wonderful wife, and life is pretty good!!
Without digging in past material, exactly what does progesterone dominance amount to?
And per your mention of a typical solution, what herb would be a 5a reductase inhibitor that contains no phyto-progestins? I'm assumimg this would be to replace the SP?
What kind of disaster would result if I was to allow the doc to try to raise my T? I kind of imagine that could be mass confusion to some degree as I wouldn't want it up to more than 200, maybe 300, but would be adjusting all my "secret formulas", unknown to her. Then she adjusts. Then I re-adjust. Etc. Sounds like a plot for a good comedy of errors!
A non-med question, or comment. (And not attempting to "stir a pot".) The note on Dutch post-op mortality rates causes me to wonder. Is it a result of going too far, or, having completed the journey they really needed to, that they were confined in a narrow sub-culture because of what they became. Thus leading some to suicide, drugs, and Aids, all of which could go hand-in-hand. It's kind of sad, in a way, when you you think that having reached their goal, the life they receive can be damn near as frustrating and limiting as the one they left behind. Just wondering.
Butea Superba, hmmm? Have to check that out. Seems I've seen that mentioned somewhere.
Lastly, if I thought the "girls" would stay, I'd drop to near nothing of everything. But, having stopped 3 years ago for a time, and being close to a 38B then, It all went away, and I do mean ALL. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Yeah, it's a catch 22. Lower the dosages and raise the T, and probably wave bye bye to them. Or?? We're going to find a way, though, 'cause now they're kind of an "investment", and I'm too attached to them to give them up!! And, they're too much fun!!
Thanks again Sweets! And forgive my rambling, I get that way sometimes. PJ
As usual, answers breed more questions. First let me ease any concerns either of you may have as to my final destination. I have absolutely NO TS inclinations. Besides being extremely follicularly-challenged pate-wise, there is the matter of my wife. Although some time back she out of the blue asked if I planned on any (slight) surgery, and said it was OK with her, I have nixed that idea. Don't need the complications that would bring, and am quite satisfied with playing the dressing charade for her and myself. Will put more on a separate thread later about our relationship, as you may find it rather interesting and unusual. Somewhere on the TG spectrum would be my position.
Now, I feel like I will reduce the Cypro to 1/4 tab (approx 12.5 mg) in the evening, and lower Premarin to 1 .625mg twice per day, and reduce PM to 1000mg twicw per day. Another option would be to lose the Cypro, and go to 1 or 2 450mg SP per day. Does any of that approach a logical choice? If it works, then when the Premarin runs out, I'll go solely with SP. I'll plan on another round of tests in 3 months and see if the T has risen. I also feel 20 is too low, and really don't feel alarmed about a few chin hairs. A really close shave in the shower lasts a good enough while for my purposes.
Maybe "dressing charade" was a poor choice of terms. It's much more than that. A true expression of part of who I feel I am, but held to a reasonable level, as I know my limits, and accept the confines I have been dealt. Many years and too much water under the bridge to go beyond the few modifications in progress. Cannot begin to imagine going thru the atom-splitting that SRS would involve.
I'm not a "fantasist", and if it ever appears so, just slap me upside the head. 25 years ago, I may have leaned to more extreme changes, but being a single parent with custody, and doing so for the last 12 years of my Army career, dictated otherwise. Weep not, I have a wonderful wife, and life is pretty good!!
Without digging in past material, exactly what does progesterone dominance amount to?
And per your mention of a typical solution, what herb would be a 5a reductase inhibitor that contains no phyto-progestins? I'm assumimg this would be to replace the SP?
What kind of disaster would result if I was to allow the doc to try to raise my T? I kind of imagine that could be mass confusion to some degree as I wouldn't want it up to more than 200, maybe 300, but would be adjusting all my "secret formulas", unknown to her. Then she adjusts. Then I re-adjust. Etc. Sounds like a plot for a good comedy of errors!
A non-med question, or comment. (And not attempting to "stir a pot".) The note on Dutch post-op mortality rates causes me to wonder. Is it a result of going too far, or, having completed the journey they really needed to, that they were confined in a narrow sub-culture because of what they became. Thus leading some to suicide, drugs, and Aids, all of which could go hand-in-hand. It's kind of sad, in a way, when you you think that having reached their goal, the life they receive can be damn near as frustrating and limiting as the one they left behind. Just wondering.
Butea Superba, hmmm? Have to check that out. Seems I've seen that mentioned somewhere.
Lastly, if I thought the "girls" would stay, I'd drop to near nothing of everything. But, having stopped 3 years ago for a time, and being close to a 38B then, It all went away, and I do mean ALL. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Yeah, it's a catch 22. Lower the dosages and raise the T, and probably wave bye bye to them. Or?? We're going to find a way, though, 'cause now they're kind of an "investment", and I'm too attached to them to give them up!! And, they're too much fun!!
Thanks again Sweets! And forgive my rambling, I get that way sometimes. PJ
Hi Bryony,
Believe me, they have very good reasons for that. You're almost there. Take the thought of misogyny to the extreme. Include the thought that in perversion, there is always a very eye catching cover up for the crime. Hate men openly to hide secret misogyny.
Don't take my tag line for sound advice. It's just what I do myself for lack of a better idea.
Believe me, they have very good reasons for that. You're almost there. Take the thought of misogyny to the extreme. Include the thought that in perversion, there is always a very eye catching cover up for the crime. Hate men openly to hide secret misogyny.
Don't take my tag line for sound advice. It's just what I do myself for lack of a better idea.
Hi Patti,
I can only help with what I know. I linked the study on mortality among post ops on this forum in a thread called "Grow and go?" Read it, and judge for yourself. And count your blessings: you will not end up as a single, childless old man.
Now the conclusion of that article is that the only possible hormonal cause is the practice among Dutch post ops to continue HRT after surgery with estrogen medication they buy on the web. Personally, I don't trust the high cypro doses either. That's why I believe your situation is delicate. Come clean to your doc, and pretty please, don't sue me for explaining the dilemma
Your idea about the close shave is the only one I have discovered to work for myself. TVs are generally level headed people, and their facial skin doesn't become flabby, because they have no skin damage from laser or electrolysis, and the hairs provide some support. Ultimately, if you decrease cypro, you will have to learn to embrace and love some aspects of your masculinity. That is the tough part for me.
Read up on the alternatives for cypro: spironolactone, finasteride, dutasteride. SP is a 5α-reductase type 2 inhibitor, which works wonders in case of prostate problems. I don't know how that helps feminization. Hops is a 5α-reductase type 1 inhibitor, which helps in case of acne. Young TVs in Belgium love it, and I still use it. People who want to sell dutasteride have sponsored research to prove that for hair loss, both types are important. For facial and body hair, I don't know, but you'll find it if you want to know. Barley grass suppresses facial hair.
The basis of my program is the lowest dose of a 5α-reductase inhibitor that limits my masculinity to a level I can handle emotionally, and still feel like myself. Then I add enough estrogens for growth, and add the minimum amount of a progestin to prevent symptoms of estrogen dominance: headaches, foggy thinking. On cypro, you could experience progesterone dominance: clear thinking, easily irritated. The bonus is prolactin: you can have quite a bit of it to cause swelling, before it shuts down libido. But PM suppresses prolactin. That's why PM stoppers experience swelling after a couple of days of PM wash out. Finally, fans of cypro point out that they don't get fat or get the bloated look. I control insulin and cortisol for weight, and I never look bloated, don't know why.
I hope this answers some of the questions. Search my program thread for "symptoms of progesterone toxicity" if you need a check list. The lists are also there for estrogen dominance, androgen dominance, and excesses or deficiencies of all the NBE hormones. I haven't gotten around to splitting up my list of anti-androgens in type 1 and type 2 yet.
I keep all these data in my program thread, but please don't read it as a guide for feminization. I ended up with a look that is too shemale for e.g. the work place, and the accusation that I'm chasing a porn fantasy is never far away. I can only express limited masculinity without feeling uncomfortable, and that is awkward in a situation that demands I make my mark. Keeping the tragedy out of my life is already a tough job. You're doing fine
I can only help with what I know. I linked the study on mortality among post ops on this forum in a thread called "Grow and go?" Read it, and judge for yourself. And count your blessings: you will not end up as a single, childless old man.
Now the conclusion of that article is that the only possible hormonal cause is the practice among Dutch post ops to continue HRT after surgery with estrogen medication they buy on the web. Personally, I don't trust the high cypro doses either. That's why I believe your situation is delicate. Come clean to your doc, and pretty please, don't sue me for explaining the dilemma
Your idea about the close shave is the only one I have discovered to work for myself. TVs are generally level headed people, and their facial skin doesn't become flabby, because they have no skin damage from laser or electrolysis, and the hairs provide some support. Ultimately, if you decrease cypro, you will have to learn to embrace and love some aspects of your masculinity. That is the tough part for me.
Read up on the alternatives for cypro: spironolactone, finasteride, dutasteride. SP is a 5α-reductase type 2 inhibitor, which works wonders in case of prostate problems. I don't know how that helps feminization. Hops is a 5α-reductase type 1 inhibitor, which helps in case of acne. Young TVs in Belgium love it, and I still use it. People who want to sell dutasteride have sponsored research to prove that for hair loss, both types are important. For facial and body hair, I don't know, but you'll find it if you want to know. Barley grass suppresses facial hair.
The basis of my program is the lowest dose of a 5α-reductase inhibitor that limits my masculinity to a level I can handle emotionally, and still feel like myself. Then I add enough estrogens for growth, and add the minimum amount of a progestin to prevent symptoms of estrogen dominance: headaches, foggy thinking. On cypro, you could experience progesterone dominance: clear thinking, easily irritated. The bonus is prolactin: you can have quite a bit of it to cause swelling, before it shuts down libido. But PM suppresses prolactin. That's why PM stoppers experience swelling after a couple of days of PM wash out. Finally, fans of cypro point out that they don't get fat or get the bloated look. I control insulin and cortisol for weight, and I never look bloated, don't know why.
I hope this answers some of the questions. Search my program thread for "symptoms of progesterone toxicity" if you need a check list. The lists are also there for estrogen dominance, androgen dominance, and excesses or deficiencies of all the NBE hormones. I haven't gotten around to splitting up my list of anti-androgens in type 1 and type 2 yet.
I keep all these data in my program thread, but please don't read it as a guide for feminization. I ended up with a look that is too shemale for e.g. the work place, and the accusation that I'm chasing a porn fantasy is never far away. I can only express limited masculinity without feeling uncomfortable, and that is awkward in a situation that demands I make my mark. Keeping the tragedy out of my life is already a tough job. You're doing fine
This post was last modified: 03-12-2011, 11:15 AM by Isabelle.
(03-12-2011, 10:03 AM)Isabelle Wrote: Hi Bryony,
Believe me, they have very good reasons for that. You're almost there. Take the thought of misogyny to the extreme. Include the thought that in perversion, there is always a very eye catching cover up for the crime. Hate men openly to hide secret misogyny.
Don't take my tag line for sound advice. It's just what I do myself for lack of a better idea.
You've got me thinking now.... jealousy of the wife for being born a girl?
That's what I don't understand; the need, by people who have fathered children and have loving wives, to "embrace womanhood" to such a degree as to want to become lesbians and force their wives to do the same.
Since when were lesbians the epitome of womanhood? I can't see how it is better to be a lesbian than it is to be a shemale. (Glad you used the word - I think we should reclaim it from the porn industry!)
Don't get me wrong - I think a homosexual transsexual going for GRS could wind up as happy as possible. I could understand, perhaps, a level of criticism or distaste from someone like that (are there any here?)
But for a pre-op heterosexual transsexual to pour scorn on a "shemale" is, to me, pitiable!
Have you heard of the UK idiom "pot calling the kettle black"?
B.
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