[Heaven's Night]

This thread has gone completely wrong. Everyone has ganged up on me, pulled up years old stuff which has nothing to do with BN or this thread, gaslit me up to high heavens and what else. It can only go into pure name calling and flame war from here if it keeps on going.

Also, I will not apologise bullies and assholes. I'm going to stop posting here as its useless. I feel like I've overstayed my welcome really badly, at least half of the forum hates me and wants me gone. Do the fuck all you want with this thread, it compeltely failed and I failed and you fucktards managed to make me look extremely bad in the process.

I give up, its useless to keep on posting when its like debating a brick wall.

[prostatenipple]

You are overly concerned about looking bad. You are not apologising.

You are trying to blame other forum members for getting upset with you for the unpleasant things you have written to them

The implication of your words is that (or can be interpreted as) you saying that Manue is a bully / asshole. I think this is gross to use that tone and language against anyone here.

HN, please consider that your words in the above quoted reply are hurtful. People would normally apologise sincerely if this is the case, but you have doubled-down. When I came to this thread I was pleased that it didn't take the "more usual" turn that I had expected with presumption, only to be later proven wrong.

I do feel bad that I'm adding to the fires here. And for that I must apologise. I would like to think that I am only defending other users here, but if I'm too much then (all) please let me know so I can dial it down. I think it's a shame that the thread, in general, did get derailed. Normally mods swoop in and prune replies they think are inflammatory. But alas it looks like we have no mods?

I think the base aspect of the thread is worth reading and considering. I think there are many people on this forum that would find the discussion interesting, even if there were any disagreements.

[Manue]

This thread has gone completely wrong. Everyone has ganged up on me, pulled up years old stuff which has nothing to do with BN or this thread, gaslit me up to high heavens and what else. It can only go into pure name calling and flame war from here if it keeps on going.

Also, I will not apologise bullies and assholes. I'm going to stop posting here as its useless. I feel like I've overstayed my welcome really badly, at least half of the forum hates me and wants me gone. Do the fuck all you want with this thread, it compeltely failed and I failed and you fucktards managed to make me look extremely bad in the process.

I give up, its useless to keep on posting when its like debating a brick wall.

Transphobia will be confronted promptly and without hesitation. If this makes some people not post, then I don't think we want such people here to begin with. Transphobic bigoted men should confront their own biases and attitudes before blurting out every possible piece of bullshit they can come up with. First grow up, then start posting.

So which is it? “Transphobia will be confronted promptly” or refusing to apologize after misgendering and then calling everyone “fucktards”? You’re asking for adult standards while modeling the opposite. That’s why this thread “failed”, as you claim it.

[flamesabers]

HN-I think this thread is still very relevant. Manue brought up her own case of transphobia (intentionally being misgendered). 

To quote your own post (in response to my inquiry about how to make BN a safe space):

Transphobia will be confronted promptly and without hesitation. 

This is exactly what has happened in this thread. As ironic as it is, I think this is a compelling piece of evidence of how much BN is a safe space. 

As far as people ganging up on you, I feel like there are definite reasons for this. You called Shirazmn a bigot over a disagreement. You misgendered Manue over a disagreement. You're doubling down over not apologizing to Manue for the misgendering. I don't think anyone here is trying to gaslight you. Instead, I suspect people are upset with your behavior. As far as I can tell, the only one who resorted to name-calling in this thread is you. 

prostatenipple-I think you made a very good point in a previous post about apologies and building bridges. Mutual respect is very important here, especially for personal/sensitive topics discussed on the forum such as growing breasts, transitioning, seeking acceptance from partner/family, etc.

I don't feel you're adding to the fire, at least, not in a bad way. I think it's important that everyone (cis, trans, etc.) express their opinion(s) here. 

In regards to mods, I think we do have them, otherwise, none of the spam postings would be deleted.

[nephele]

i think this thread is a horrible real-world example of why we would need actual safe spaces. and this is not a safe space at all.

instead of acknowledging the problem, there's been all kinds of transphobic and interphobic slander being thrown around, citing science and biology etc. to try to revive eugenics and construct a scientific godhead who decides who is what. that is incredibly hurtful and those messages by shirazmn (and flamesabers agreeing to every such post) alone are enough for me to not feel welcome on this forum at all.

there's a well written article about the issue, this gets immediately shot down because of the author is not in medical field, HRT, surgeries etc. transmedicalism like this is deeply offensive and exclusionary.

and again the term "genetic males" is dug up. nobody has explained what that means? you can't see a person's sex by looking at their genes. you can't see it in any one measurement. it's a spectrum. yet you keep on bringing it up.

and now there's a pile of messages all sparked from a single bad incident that's btw only known to manue and heaven's night, so the others can do nothing but take your words for it. it might be bad, but i'm not gonna let you pretend like all the other dehumanising shit hasn't gone down even in this thread. like this is so ridiculously bad, everyone's pointing fingers now that there's a discord incident to be dug up, but everything prior to that is conveniently ignored.

and how should anyone build bridges if you're waiting on the other side with a baseball bat, ready to swing again in a minute? respect is earned, not given.

"Newcomers will read that and assume that people in this forum are genetic males, whether you like the definition or not"
this really tells me everything. this forum is for those who have the right genes, the right identity, whether that tells anything about the person or not is not up for debate, and the following "i have nothing against.." is just wind after the initial idea. you absolutely do have against. you're just deferring your hateful ideas to the hypothetical "newcomer" who's coming here all loaded with hatred towards anyone not resembling him, and you're all for pandering to that kind of twisted narrative.

[Curvyguy]

Well said! This is exactly what I wanted to say transphobia has no place in society in general. I have known trans people and even have a trans male partner and the way Heaven's Night has been treated here is truly revolting and those responsible should be ashamed of themselves! 

But then again bullies never apologise because they feel they are right and everyone else is wrong that's why this world is going to hell with people like that pushing other minorities about. I can't stand bullies and had experience with them myself growing up because I was different than them. 

We should embrace differences not see them as something to be erased like the nazis tried to do over 80 years ago.

I say things as they are and I will to someone's face who dares be transphobic to any of my trans friends and especially my man. 

I had to get it off my chest and will say no more but be warned anyone starts on me like that here I won't back down and I will fight my corner 

[Heaven's Night]

Transphobia will be confronted promptly and without hesitation. If this makes some people not post, then I don't think we want such people here to begin with. Transphobic bigoted men should confront their own biases and attitudes before blurting out every possible piece of bullshit they can come up with. First grow up, then start posting.

So which is it? “Transphobia will be confronted promptly” or refusing to apologize after misgendering and then calling everyone “fucktards”? You’re asking for adult standards while modeling the opposite. That’s why this thread “failed”, as you claim it.

You have never apologised either, your nasty as fuck narcsissit tgendencies and relentlessly starting fights with me over things on Discord hasn't been forgotten. Nor the threats... "You have no idea who you're dealing with" and so on. Remember anything like that? 

I know what you are, a backstabbing foul bitch who loves fights and bullying and pull up stuff in here which was totally irrelevant to this thread only to make me look back in eyes of those who don't know the details. Also, I remember why I was so pissed off at you on my server, you went on about something about invalidating trans women as real actual women, all while actively transitioning and claiming to be just a "dysphoric man" or what ever it was. This is kind of thing that absolutely digs the fight in me as its just false as can be, of course, your identity is yours to keep how you see fit.

I don't remember the misgendering, I will not apologise to you goddamn manipulative narcissistic hateful bitch! This is the only time I'll ever address you as I'm putting you in ignore you idiot. So will all due kindness, piss off.

[Heaven's Night]

HN-I think this thread is still very relevant. Manue brought up her own case of transphobia (intentionally being misgendered). 

To quote your own post (in response to my inquiry about how to make BN a safe space):

Transphobia will be confronted promptly and without hesitation. 

This is exactly what has happened in this thread. As ironic as it is, I think this is a compelling piece of evidence of how much BN is a safe space. 

As far as people ganging up on you, I feel like there are definite reasons for this. You called Shirazmn a bigot over a disagreement. You misgendered Manue over a disagreement. You're doubling down over not apologizing to Manue for the misgendering. I don't think anyone here is trying to gaslight you. Instead, I suspect people are upset with your behavior. As far as I can tell, the only one who resorted to name-calling in this thread is you. 

prostatenipple-I think you made a very good point in a previous post about apologies and building bridges. Mutual respect is very important here, especially for personal/sensitive topics discussed on the forum such as growing breasts, transitioning, seeking acceptance from partner/family, etc.

I don't feel you're adding to the fire, at least, not in a bad way. I think it's important that everyone (cis, trans, etc.) express their opinion(s) here. 

In regards to mods, I think we do have them, otherwise, none of the spam postings would be deleted.

Only ones who are upset are genital obsessed bigots, they're the ones who get stung every time the subject of this thread is brought up. 
Se koira älähtää johon kalikka kalahtaa. (The dog who cries is the one the stick hits, best translation to this I can think of.)

I'm calling things as I see them. I didn't call out Shiraz by name, you did and he did. Over a disagreement, no, over transphobia.

I will never apologise bullies. Respect is earnerd I will give zero respect to assholes who absolutely do not deserve one ounce of it.

[Heaven's Night]

i think this thread is a horrible real-world example of why we would need actual safe spaces. and this is not a safe space at all.

instead of acknowledging the problem, there's been all kinds of transphobic and interphobic slander being thrown around, citing science and biology etc. to try to revive eugenics and construct a scientific godhead who decides who is what. that is incredibly hurtful and those messages by shirazmn (and flamesabers agreeing to every such post) alone are enough for me to not feel welcome on this forum at all.

there's a well written article about the issue, this gets immediately shot down because of the author is not in medical field, HRT, surgeries etc. transmedicalism like this is deeply offensive and exclusionary.

and again the term "genetic males" is dug up. nobody has explained what that means? you can't see a person's sex by looking at their genes. you can't see it in any one measurement. it's a spectrum. yet you keep on bringing it up.

and now there's a pile of messages all sparked from a single bad incident that's btw only known to manue and heaven's night, so the others can do nothing but take your words for it. it might be bad, but i'm not gonna let you pretend like all the other dehumanising shit hasn't gone down even in this thread. like this is so ridiculously bad, everyone's pointing fingers now that there's a discord incident to be dug up, but everything prior to that is conveniently ignored.

and how should anyone build bridges if you're waiting on the other side with a baseball bat, ready to swing again in a minute? respect is earned, not given.

"Newcomers will read that and assume that people in this forum are genetic males, whether you like the definition or not"
this really tells me everything. this forum is for those who have the right genes, the right identity, whether that tells anything about the person or not is not up for debate, and the following "i have nothing against.." is just wind after the initial idea. you absolutely do have against. you're just deferring your hateful ideas to the hypothetical "newcomer" who's coming here all loaded with hatred towards anyone not resembling him, and you're all for pandering to that kind of twisted narrative.

Hi Neph. 

This isn't new, BN has never been a true safe space for us. Everything that has been brought up has been discussed to death many times before. I'm not the first one to feel the need to point these problems out. If you go digging, there are old threads from various now gone trans women debating a whole lot of the sametopics from language to terms to rights to how we're treated on the forum.

There's a good reason all of them have stopped posting and moved on with very few exceptions.

The thing with science anc biology being brought up is annoying, these things are always interpreted in a wrong way and used to invalidate. Why the fuck would any non cis sex person here on the forum need to loudly state which chromosome setup they have, or which gender they identify as or which particular sex characteristics they have behaving which way? We're supposed to talk about growing boobs here, and then there's a demand for splitting hairs with everything and stuff that almost no one has even got checked about themselves as they never felt the need?

Genital obsessed bigots AKA "gender critical" people love the idea of chromosomes as a defining factor, which they're not in the absolute sense, Obviously most people here on the forum have an activated Y chromosome, but they don't know more than that and don't need to. Chromosomes are used as a biological "gotcha" by transphobes as if it means a goddamn thing.

Who needs a strict gender binary? The ones in control do... Who wants to control women? Men do.  



Here's a thing about posting on this forum, as long as I talk about NBE, give advice on HRT and NBE, or update my main thread, everything is fine. Its all business as usual. The problems begin almost every time I bring up anything that has to do with terms and language, minority rights or transphobia on the forum. The latter always set off certain people and some of them endlessly repeat the loop of arguing, pointing fingers, gaslighting the fuck out of me and just trying to bully me into silence. This is not the first time, it wont be the last unless I decided to just leave... Which the genital obsessed trasvestites would absolutely love of course. Btw, who ever feels the sting of those words or about "genital obsessed bigot" is only telling on their guilt. Others who don't have such mental capacity issues feel nothing as they have wronged no one.

Nephele and Curvyguy, thanks for being the voice of reason.

I'm done with this thread, I'm absolutely totally done with it. Everything worth saying has been said now. Have fun.

I love you all.  

EDIT:
Here's the possum of they day, I'm sure it'll cheer you up.

[Shirazmn]

i think this thread is a horrible real-world example of why we would need actual safe spaces. and this is not a safe space at all.


instead of acknowledging the problem, there's been all kinds of transphobic and interphobic slander being thrown around, citing science and biology etc. to try to revive eugenics and construct a scientific godhead who decides who is what. that is incredibly hurtful and those messages by shirazmn (and flamesabers agreeing to every such post) alone are enough for me to not feel welcome on this forum at all.

there's a well written article about the issue, this gets immediately shot down because of the author is not in medical field, HRT, surgeries etc. transmedicalism like this is deeply offensive and exclusionary.

and again the term "genetic males" is dug up. nobody has explained what that means? you can't see a person's sex by looking at their genes. you can't see it in any one measurement. it's a spectrum. yet you keep on bringing it up.

and now there's a pile of messages all sparked from a single bad incident that's btw only known to manue and heaven's night, so the others can do nothing but take your words for it. it might be bad, but i'm not gonna let you pretend like all the other dehumanising shit hasn't gone down even in this thread. like this is so ridiculously bad, everyone's pointing fingers now that there's a discord incident to be dug up, but everything prior to that is conveniently ignored.

and how should anyone build bridges if you're waiting on the other side with a baseball bat, ready to swing again in a minute? respect is earned, not given.

"Newcomers will read that and assume that people in this forum are genetic males, whether you like the definition or not"
this really tells me everything. this forum is for those who have the right genes, the right identity, whether that tells anything about the person or not is not up for debate, and the following "i have nothing against.." is just wind after the initial idea. you absolutely do have against. you're just deferring your hateful ideas to the hypothetical "newcomer" who's coming here all loaded with hatred towards anyone not resembling him, and you're all for pandering to that kind of twisted narrative.

@nephele On one thing I agree with HR: these issues have been discussed over and over before. And I admit that I am usually the one who points out when people get stuck on language, attacking posters instead of guiding them to understanding the issues. It's not a case of HT VS Manue here. We have seen this thing before, we are seeing it in other threads at this very time, and I've been around long enough to see it on Discord. While HT is not the only one doing that, she definitely is one of the people who snaps most easily and, as you can tell, she doesn't hold back on insulting, belittling, and proposing to ban people left and right. I raised a point on language and so far I've been branded a bigot and a fucktard (and I am sure I missed some of the name calling). I may have said things not everyone agrees on, which makes sense because we are on an adult-only forum where I believe people shouild be able to express themselves respectfully without being attacked. If what I am saying offends you I am sorry but I won't change my mind until scientific evidence comes up and proves me wrong. I've changed my mind in the past on many issues, but never baselessly.

And, yes, science. Science is that repeatable thing that allows a chemical analyst to look at molecules and understand what will bind with your estrogen receptors. It's that thing that doctors study to have knowledge that applies to most patients so they can help them. Science is not a very eloquent essay written by a philosopher: it's method, repeatability, standardisation. It's the stuff that every day allows countless transgender people to aligh their body with their mind without dying in the process. 
Science has terminology that helps people understanding what happens to whom. In science there is a difference between the definitions used for humans about sex and gender. DNA matters because it gives a person the organs to produce a specific set of hormones. I don't care what people have in their panties: I care about what hormones people produce when we are talking about what to suppress, how much of the other hormones to take etc... This forum is not for those with the "right genes" only, but its subtitle kind of implies that people here started with an XY genetic markup. That's what "genetic males" mean, not necessarily that they have a penis, vagina, both etc... As I said before, it's a bit rich to be here and get angry if anyone ever asks you if you are, genetically, male. 

I don't deflect anything on a "hypotetical newcomer", I am very aware of the fact that many people have never spoken with a transgender person before and they have zero idea of how to relate to them. If the first thing that happens to these people is to be insulted, it will probably be the last time they speak to anyone while searching for themselves. I've been there myself: 15 years ago I met a transgender person for the first time and, not knowing what I was doing and where boundaries were, I was also coming from a different culture and language, I asked if she had the operation. Instead of snapping at me, she explained boundaries and language. I learned, I am now a better person, and that opened up in my brain the understanding of the difference between a woman and someone with a specific set of genitals. Had I found someone like HT that day, my path to understanding the shades of sex and genders would have been very different, it could even have stopped altogether. We just can't assume that people know how to talk about the topics we discussed, or that they know the boundaries.
Is this attitude bigoted? Seriously?

And when I write "I have nothing against", I mean that I have nothing against. I didn't use a "but" in that sentence. I stated my feeling and my thoughts about having people of all sexes and genders in this forum. No "buts". 

One thing I am tired of, though, is to see forum users insulting others directly. While "bigoted" may not sound like much, "fucktards" seem a bit more direct. Also "your nasty as fuck narcsissit tgendencies" (sic.) seems a bit like a direct attack. Admins should probably do something but... looks like it's the actual admin that is behaving like that. Is this really acceptable? Isn't that the kind of language that should be avoided here instead of banning language about genetics, biology and hormones? What of the two languages makes BN a less friendly and less welcoming place? And, mind, this is not a direct attack on HT, who is "always done with this thread" or "done with BreastNexum", then invariably spits some more bile against all others in her private thread under "personal programs" before she returns to the original thread to vomit some more. This is really a conversation I want to have about language.