[prostatenipple]

Hi everyone

What's the consensus on Red Clover for NBE if we can get / do have PM already?

Is it worth using at all?


Notes that I have:

Red Clover - Minor [[Aromatase inhibitor]], but highly estrogenic.

Binds some to [[Estrogen Receptor Alpha]] receptors (boob growth receptor).

## Danger

There are some posts that indicate that Red Clover is not useful or dangerous:

> red clover's phytoestrogens (it works on [[Estrogen Receptor Beta]] don't interact with receptors in the breast (ER-alpha, PR, PrlR).

Fenugreek and Red Clover used together are competing for the same receptor (ER-a, estrogen receptor alpha). It's redundant to add more phytoestrogens to occupy the same receptor, essentially your interfering with your breast growth. Anyone who's read the science knows this. Best to stick with one phytoestrogen at a time.
- Lotus

> Red clover contains as much phyto-progestins as phyto-estrogens: 
  http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=8419&pid=30122&highlight=red+clover+progestin#pid30122 
>  Progesterone increases libido in women.

Hops-(activates alpha estrogen receptor)Not as estrogenic as PM or red clover, but activates alpha estrogen receptors which stimulate breast growth.  

Red Clover: Red clover is a part of the legume family, like soy, and also contains isoflavones, which are phytoestrogens. But unlike the other legumes, red clover contains all four estrogenic isoflavones: biochanin, formonoetin, daidzein, and genistein, making it one of the strongest estrogenic herbs. It’s also one of the strongest PR (progesterone)-binding herbs, so you can use red clover to increase both estrogen and progesterone levels. 
Note: Red clover’s also been shown to be helpful in reducing bad cholesterol levels and stimulating the increase in bile acid. It also contains small amounts of coumarins, which dilates blood vessels and helps to keep the blood from becoming thick and gummy – a good thing overall ‘cause it prevents blood clots and arterial plaque. 
(catpower's note: reducing cholesterol levels and thinning blood may be particularly beneficial for NBE, as an increased estrogen level is a known risk factor for DVTs -- blood clots in the calf that can travel to the lungs, heart, or brain).  

> While FG is a good choice, if I'm not mistaken, Lotus once wrote that in terms of Phytoestrogen strength, Pueraria Mirifica was #1 and [[Red Clover]] is #2, followed by Fenugreek & others.

> For some reason Fenugreek and [[Red Clover]] are the only herbs that make me feel both girly but more than anything they make me feel really horny.

And this is what I really want - to be more horny and to be more girly. Plus breast growth (fairly sure I've budded now on both breasts but they are still fairly small like A cups).

Others say that RC is a waste of money.


What's the agreement with RC? Bin it? Keep it?

[prostatenipple]

And if RC contains phytoestrogens and phytoprogestins, does that mean one could use RC (maybe in higher doses?) as their phyotestrogen and progesterone source, skipping PM and FG altogether?

Otherwise we would have to use PM (which is good) and need to find another source of PG that does not have a source of phytoestrogens so that it doesn't compete with PM?

[Heaven's Night]

Maybe this is worht a try? I presume its likely similar to other phytoestrogens, that it might work, but the results are likely limited. RC has plenty of very interesting qualities and my experience from its topical use is very positive one. I've been adding RC extract topically to the TCP for fourteen months now and I've noted that it does indeed have a cumulative effect as Lotus suggested. But its effect can't be told apart easily as its working in combination with bunch of other ingredients.

I have no idea about the effectiveness of plant progestins. Its likely similar to phytoestrogens, effects are limited and it might conflict with bio identical progesterone. Then again, I've been taking more than one plant based stuff which helps to boost progesterone levels and its effectiveness, doesn't seem to be very problematic, but that's just my experience.

Someone willing to try RC instead of PM? Would be interesting experiment.

[Curvyguy]

I'm looking at using a FG cream in future but would hops have more of an impact breast wise? Also which is less impactful on fertility?

[prostatenipple]

Maybe this is worht a try? I presume its likely similar to other phytoestrogens, that it might work, but the results are likely limited. RC has plenty of very interesting qualities and my experience from its topical use is very positive one. I've been adding RC extract topically to the TCP for fourteen months now and I've noted that it does indeed have a cumulative effect as Lotus suggested. But its effect can't be told apart easily as its working in combination with bunch of other ingredients.

I have no idea about the effectiveness of plant progestins. Its likely similar to phytoestrogens, effects are limited and it might conflict with bio identical progesterone. Then again, I've been taking more than one plant based stuff which helps to boost progesterone levels and its effectiveness, doesn't seem to be very problematic, but that's just my experience.

Someone willing to try RC instead of PM? Would be interesting experiment.

Indeed!
I think Teddy was looking at potentially using RC instead of PM. I've replied to their thread to point to this one.

I feel maybe RC is also a lot cheaper - 180 tablets of 1000mg for £7.99, although we don't know if the dose needs to be much higher than a typical PM dose.
And once budded, maybe it's better due to the phytoprogestins - I share your skepticism about it, as the only valid PG use case I've read about here is to use PG cream and apply topically (see the whole thing about Wild Yam capsules not being effective, and only cream works).

I've got a bunch of RC tablets, and might try a couple of weeks of only RC as an experiment. I am itching to order a big load of PM capsules however so need some encouragement to try the RC experiment.

[prostatenipple]

I'm looking at using a FG cream in future but would hops have more of an impact breast wise? Also which is less impactful on fertility?

For myself, my only worry about fertility is that it might reduce my sperm count for... "other uses"... rather than pregnancy. So I don't worry about it. But I can see that others might.

For Hops - don't think I've found a source in the UK, but I admit I didn't really look seriously. One to add to the mix. I do have some notes I dumped into my wiki from this forum so will need to search and find more about Hops. What is the benefit of Hops - is it just phytoestrogen? or other actions to it as well?

[Curvyguy]

Ah ok might just go with the FG cream as I would like to maintain things for pregnancy in the future with my partner. Thanks for the advice

[prostatenipple]

Fertility is something I don't know much about.

The little bits I do know (and maybe I am still wrong), is that sperm production is determined by FSH levels (not sure about LH levels), and since that's probably controlled by a negative feedback system with the HPA (hypothalamus-pituitary axis) and maybe affected by estrogen, it might be that too much estrogen tells the body to reduce testosterone production, which might also be linked with reduced FSH production (that's why biologically male people on testosterone treatment who want to conceive are put in HCG or other things to keep their FSH or testicles working).

So, it could be:  too much estrogen (because of NBE goals) -> negative feedback with HPA-> reduced FSH/LH/Test -> reduced fertility

So I thought doing NBE is likely to lead to fertility issues unless you also take something to specifically keep your balls active and producing sperm. I could be wrong.

[wee2er]

I've no experience on RC capsules, however, like Lara I do RC in my topical and I feel that it does help. How much it helps I'm unsure as its all in the mix prog, dhea, etc
RC extract is easy to get hold of in the UK.
Good luck with your regime.