Sub-subject note/clarity: Starting Back Ups Full-Time (Before Deciding On Doing Actual HRT)

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Hihii!!!

As the title states, I haves done herbal based approaches in the past; as a way to explore who I was physically and mentally (in a much lighter way).  After a long number of years of talking with a therapist, meeting and talking to others, and understanding myself more; I've decided on starting back on a full-time, regular herbal based approach before fully stepping in and continuing with HRT.

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Also to note: I am not starting this program up until I have tested/frozen sperm, as unsure if I would want kids at all (but if I ever do change the feeling, then have the option even after going through everything).  If it shows bad results, wouldn't change how I feel and would still continue on withs the plan & transitioning.

Would be able to start up either around start or middle of December if everything goes good & quick.

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Goals (in no particular order):

• Softer skin
  
• Body fat distribution (i.e. to hips, thighs, & butt)
  
• Mental changes (i.e. mood, emotions)
  
• Thinning of body & facial hair (sadly naturally hairy, so have a feeling this will 1000% need to be paired with laser/other approaches as well).  Already a super pain to take care of/handle.
  
• Hair regrowth if possible (unfortunate draw from one side of my family that I did receive; as it is slowly starting)
  
• Orgasm fluid changes (i.e. turn clear, hence doing the freezing & stuff before)
  
• And of course breast growth (alongside the butt, thighs, & hips :3)
  

Overall is to just align myself with who I see myself as (hence the eventual move to actual HRT).

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Program Items Selection:

As such, I have been utilizing a bunch of the informative posts provided on this site, as well as, some of the personal programs people have been posting in order to get an idea as to what products to utilize, as well as, dosing & frequency of taking them.

As from Lotus' posts, once doing a full plan I should at least have the following:

from jacp114:
1 estrogenic herb
1 pro-hormone
1-proarmatase
1potentiator (vitamins/minerals, etc.)
1 anti-androgen

With this in mind, I have utilized the following pages as a starting point for picking items out:

https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17830
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17416
https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=21689

From here, I ended up looking at these items for a full-time program (until actual HRT):

Estrogenic Herb: PM (Barlowe's Herbal - pill)
Pro-Hormone: Fish Oil & Vitamin D3 (Pill, Tincture)
Pro-Aromatase: White Peony (Tincture)
Protentiators: Dandelion Root (Tincture)
Anti-Androgen: Reishi Mushroom (Tincture)

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Dosing:

As I'm more-so unfamiliar with the amounts to take, I looked into a few programs of other users that they have posed here.  They can be found in the links below.

1) Maze (14-08-2021 #5): https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=30277&pid=217355&highlight=dandelion+root+dose#pid217355
2) Lotus (27-05-2014 #65, Larana & Lotus) https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17416&page=7
3) Lotus (26-09-2013 #1) https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=17436
4) Kanony (14-07-2023 #1) https://www.breastnexum.com/showthread.php?tid=31387

Also to note: Yes, I will absolutely go slow (i.e. not jumping right into 2000-3000mg PM, etc.)  Will stick to the bottle for daily allotment in certain areas & only adjust once everything has been started (adjusting one item at a time).  Please see dosing plan below.

Based upon these posts, I would take the current maximum amount each day (starting point):

PM: 1000mg per day (2 pills/day)
Vitamin D3: 12 drops per day (1 serving is 4 drops, each containing 10mcg or 400 IU according to label)

• Unsure about this one, please let me know if this needs to be adjusted
  
• Daily limit on label says 4 drops up to 5x a day
  

White Peony: 3ml per day (based on discussion I saw in Dosing reference 2 between Larana & Lotus)

• Daily limit on label says 0.7-1ml 4x a day.  1m is about 970mg.
  
• Let me know if this should change.
  

Dandelion Root: 1000 mg per day

• Daily limit on label says 0.7-1ml 4x a day.  However saw people's plans that were lower.  Hence, hit the starting dose here.  Let me know if this should change.
  

Reishi Mushroom: 1200mg/day

• Again, daily limit on label says 0.7-1ml 4x a day.  Saw a reply from Lotus in the dosing reference 2 for the swanson vitamin one to take it 2x a day (serving size being 2 capsules @ 600mg per capsule on the bottle).  Let me know if this should change.
  

I would take this maximum amount over three periods each day (4 hour increments), as captured by a write-up by lotus:

When to supplement (timing)
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Hormones are released every 90 minutes, the binding of receptors takes 30-45 minutes upon activation.  The process of supplementing should match that cycle (e.g. supplement every 4 hrs to correspond with the cycle rather than taking all at once, or in large dose).

So essentially as a starting point:
A) One PM pill twice a day (plan Morning & Evening)
B) 4 Drops Vitamin D3 three times a day (Morning, Mid-Day, & Evening)
C) 1ml White Peony three times a day (Morning, Mid-Day, & Evening)
D) 10 drops Dandelion Root three times a day (Morning, Mid-Day, & Evening)
E) 12 drops Reishi Mushroom three times a day. (Morning, Mid-Day, & Evening)

Again, please let me know if I should be taking something at a different time of the day.

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Additional Questions:

1) I have seen plans of people utilizing Progesterone Cream.  Is this something I should be utilizing right at the beginning of the program? Or introduce it after being on the program?

• Additionally, would this item replace something in the program? If so, what would it replace?
  

2) Additionally, I have seen people use BO compared to PM.  What is the main difference between these two items? Does one product work better in comparison to the other (or is it simply person to person)?
3) I understand/read that PM can be hard on the liver.  Is there any other items that can support the liver while going through this program (i.e. before going on actual HRT)?
4) What dosing should be taken for fish oil during this type of regiment? Or does Vitamin D3 suffice?  Additionally, does Vitamin D3 need to be taken alongside any other items?


Thankies to everyone! ^_^

Hi Kitty,

Welcome and great to see that you have done some thorough homework on everything.

My only comments are:

PM v BO - You'll have read about the whole spectrum of bad to excellent results for both. For me PM caused me to bub and nothing much else, whereas BO started to give me shape. HRT being the ultimate in breast shape, density and feminisation.
PM - You'll also will have read about PM and potentially killer blood clots, this is REAL, although I didnt get any blood clots personally, I'd stay well clear of PM, but everyone is different.
BO - Again you should have read that for some it works, for others it doesn't, some say it's body temp, but who knows? BO is definitely one of those unknowns, however, as far as I know, doesn't come with risks.

Red reishi - is a great AA, but adding EGCG is the best known DHT killer short of pharma, and as we know DHT is one of the things that stops feminisation/breast growth.

Vit D - Caution, you can overdose on Vit D! Also from my research the best is D3, but to get better absorption you need to add K2 (menaquinone MK-7) 

Liver stress - consider taking milk thistle.

Blood tests - changing hormones is serious, if you can, get bloods done regularly. This is how I found out that you can OD on Vit D, along with a few other potential issues.

Listen to you body - so important to learn and do so, your body is an amazing super-machine, don't stress it, just listen to it. 

Good luck with your new regime xx

Hihii, thankies for the response!!

Will definitely look more into both items (PM & BO). I knew that PM would be hard on the liver and had some sort of risk surrounding blood clots.  Believe the user “Heaven’s Night” stated it is better in lower quantities (being 1500mg or less a day), but each person’s “safe” dosage could be different (with the safest being actual HRT via cream/injections).

I’m just not too familiar with BO (and risks it may bring, if any) to make that distinction to go with one over another currently (as such need to read more while starting out with PM).

Regarding EGCG, I would have to look up more on that item (both this site & online), as my knowledge sadly only reaches over what I have read thread wise above.  After reading a bit more from “Project X”, it seems like it is mainly Green Tea Extract (or at least was in Lotus’ program). Will look into adding but not exactly sure on dosage (believe Lotus said something about taking 100-200mg capsule 1x or 2x a day).

On the Vitamin D3, I can pretty much nail that it would be something I am lacking (extreme home-body & live in a state where it sadly is not sunny/warm all year round).  More-so I was just confused on the dosing (I.e. where to start with it & adjusting items if needed).

I will also look at adding Vitamin K2 (MK7), but would just like to confirm what foods it might be in (as I might already be getting them, and hence would need to be much much stricter if I decided to add it to the program).

Also will do Milk Thistle for the liver health, very good point out & will try to find starter dosages from the references here!

And definitely would be looking into blood tests & listening to my body!

Edit: more clarity on PM
Edit 2: Surrounding EGCG

Additional Questions:

1) I have seen plans of people utilizing Progesterone Cream.  Is this something I should be utilizing right at the beginning of the program? Or introduce it after being on the program?

• Additionally, would this item replace something in the program? If so, what would it replace?
  

2) Additionally, I have seen people use BO compared to PM.  What is the main difference between these two items? Does one product work better in comparison to the other (or is it simply person to person)?
3) I understand/read that PM can be hard on the liver.  Is there any other items that can support the liver while going through this program (i.e. before going on actual HRT)?
4) What dosing should be taken for fish oil during this type of regiment? Or does Vitamin D3 suffice?  Additionally, does Vitamin D3 need to be taken alongside any other items?


Thankies to everyone! ^_^

Nice to see such thought out well structured post.

1) Prog can definitely help right from the beginning, but I think it gets way better along with conventional HRT. Note that its essential part of the Topical Cream Protocol (Search the thread and read it.) which I think should be called what it is, experimental topical HRT. So far me and few others who have done it correctly have been reporting positive effects, no nasty side effects or elevated cancer risk etc. detected so far, I'm probably the one who has been doing it for the longest time consistently now with tweaks and testing out different dosages etc.? 

2)BO doesn't have the DVT risk which is proven time and again with PM especially if tis overdosed or used when there's an underlying health conditions present. BO contains bioidentical hormones rather than phytoestrogen so its "the real deal", which exact hormones it contains and in what quantities may differ and isn't wel know. Some to whom BO works wellhave reported extremely good breast development while PM does average/mediocre results at best. 

3)Dandelion root and milk thistle is a good combination that is benficial to liver health.

4)Fish oil is healthy af, take enough.  Vitamin D3 is essential for breast development, take a decently high dose, 4000iu/100mcg is highest recommended daily dose but it is mostly safe to exceed it a bit especially during dark months. D3 is a big factor on IGF-1 levels which is one of the key factors growing your boobs. Note that growth hormone and growth factors also make cancerous tumors grow like crazy so if there's tiniest suspicion of cancer, stop all that immediately.(This is one thing I'm using my body as a test lab for, I might be playing with fire but at least I know to not have known genetics for breast cancers. I'm taking one for the team with IGF-1/HGF route.)

So, do take D3, 4000iu or slightly higher and do take Omega3s. Also omega6 (Evening primrose oil) and chasteberry as a combination is a way to boost your progesterone levels/receptor sensitivity and another neat trick with making prog do its job is a shot of extra virgin olive oil in the evening when you're taking your prog.

Hihii!! Thankies for the response on this!!!

For (1), what product would you recommend for Prog and what would a good daily dosage be?  Additionally, where would I apply this item (directly onto breasts? Or would it be placed on places like lower tummy, inner thigh, etc? Also saw posts of people applying it directly to their balls but don't know what directly that would do)?

Additionally, I saw Lotus say to start utilizing prog cream when budding starts.  As such, should I only start taking it once I see budding?

For (2), thanks for clarifying on BO.  I believe I read somewhere that when taking BO, you need to take other glandular(s) (believe it is Pituitary Glandular; but also saw that you mentioned Uterine Glandular) alongside it (thus programs being slightly different than PM).  If so, what items do I need to take if I do decide to go with BO (both PG & UG? Just one of the supporting cast?)?  Additionally, what products would you recommend for BO & the respective glandular (Saw Swanson had products for BO & PG; but unsure of what would be reliable & products for UG)?  And what is considered a safe starting dosage for the BO and its accompanying glandular items (saw people state they did 3 total daily pills of BO a day for a total of 750mg; while PG was 2 total daily pills for a total of 160mg)?

For (3), as I haven't yet found a good daily dose start for milk thistle, would you happen to know roughly what is considered a safe starting dosage?

For (4), perfect, thank you for clarifying on this item on what the maximum dosage can be for Vitamin D3, as I didn't see too much on the site.  For Omega-3, Evening Primrose Oil, and Chasteberry: what would a good daily dosage intake of these items look like (in terms of mg/day) and what products would you recommend for them?

Thankies again!!

Edit: Section on Prog
Edit 2: Section on BO

I'm trying to be quick, its earl morning for me and I'm not even woken up yet, I'm having a very rough time lately, my dog is sick with unknown cause, it has ruined my sleep for almost three weeks, I'm worried sick. My skin issues are flaring up and depression is creeping back. Its increasingly difficult to think clearly and reply to posts here. 

For (1), what product would you recommend for Prog and what would a good daily dosage be?  Additionally, where would I apply this item (directly onto breasts? Or would it be placed on places like lower tummy, inner thigh, etc? Also saw posts of people applying it directly to their balls but don't know what directly that would do)?

Smokey Mountains Prog cream is good. Most Prog creams are quite the same and none are perfect. With them dosing could be difficult to get high enough as they're almost all very low concentration. You would be better off with pharma prog as either gel or from capsules. 100mg - 200mg is a typical daily dosage. 

Topically I would only use it as a part of the topical protocol and not on its own. Balls? For real? Who the heck does that and for what reason? Seems silly to me... 

For (2), thanks for clarifying on BO.  I believe I read somewhere that when taking BO, you need to take other glandular(s) (believe it is Pituitary Glandular; but also saw that you mentioned Uterine Glandular) alongside it (thus programs being slightly different than PM).  If so, what items do I need to take if I do decide to go with BO (both PG & UG? Just one of the supporting cast?)?  Additionally, what products would you recommend for BO & the respective glandular (Saw Swanson had products for BO & PG; but unsure of what would be reliable & products for UG)?  And what is considered a safe starting dosage for the BO and its accompanying glandular items (saw people state they did 3 total daily pills of BO a day for a total of 750mg; while PG was 2 total daily pills for a total of 160mg)?

Its not a must to use other glandulars on the side, but they can be helpful addition. Swanson, all of them. At least for me its been the only viable option for all the time I've been on them. Nobody seems to know what is "unsafe" dosage as there is no information. But optimal is said to be 1500mg/day, anything above 500mg can be effective, I've been experiementing with much higer doses but I don't recommend it, actually I don't recommend anything I do because I'm a test lab for experimental HRT and NBE stuff which might not be the smartest idea but someone has to test this stuff out. 

Yea 750mg BO 160 Pit might be a good starting point.

For (3), as I haven't yet found a good daily dose start for milk thistle, would you happen to know roughly what is considered a safe starting dosage?

Again, I do not know about what is unsafe. I got some vague idea on milk thistle dosages reading stuff I searched, I've done 1200mg and what was the other dose, I don't remember. Not a lot because otherwise it would get very expensive. I've noted it helps with prolactin like it should. The liver health effect I'm not sure about, but I guess its one of the things you wont notice as liver doesn't shout out about anything except failure. 

For (4), perfect, thank you for clarifying on this item on what the maximum dosage can be for Vitamin D3, as I didn't see too much on the site.  For Omega-3, Evening Primrose Oil, and Chasteberry: what would a good daily dosage intake of these items look like (in terms of mg/day) and what products would you recommend for them?

I'm quoting from memory so I might be incorrect, EPO 2000mg and Vitex/Charsteberry 1200mg. Again I do not know what are safe/unsafe/recommended doses, I figured this out mostly by economic reasons. I get four month supply of these for about 50€ and they're takenas 2x EPO 4X Vitex daily which makes it super simple to remember. I might have again read something about dosing I found by searching the net. 

Anyway, this combo seems to be beneficial and it should help progesterone doing its job/boost natural levels, its one of the things I'm on as sort of quietly supplementing HRT on the side, just like what the HGH and prolactin boosting amino acids do. 

I should do an undated listing and explanation post of everything I have in my program as there are the main parts which specifically aim for breast development and then there's supplemental ones which make the whole thing just more efficient and most have some sort of health benefits.

Thankies again for the response and I'm so sorry to hear about your dog's unknown illness! Hoping they'll be able to figure out what is affecting them and help them!

As for the PC, I will look into Smokey Mountains Prog for the meantime (until moving to pharma options).

Regarding the BO & PG, I will move forward with them over PM (just on the blood clot item) and start with that daily dosage amount.

Regarding the the milk thistle, thank you for the rough ball-park of 1200mg.  I will still look into dosage around the site, but will most likely start off lower just to be on the cautious side possibly.

Lastly, regarding EPO & Chasteberry, thank you as well for providing the rough ball-park.  Will still research more from other items on this site to confirm the amount.  Can always start with less to be safe as well!

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And guess for a last note: think I misspoke when talking about "safe" dosage amounts.  Guess I just meant the "on-average" dosage amount from people that take them here.  But all the items you identified were extremely helpful!

UPDATED PLAN (11/11/2025)

Previous plan:

PM: 1000mg/day (2 pills per day)
Vitamin D3: 1200 IU/day
White Peony: 3ml/day (970mg per 1ml)
Dandelion Root: 1000mg/day
Reishi Mushroom: 1200mg/day

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New plan:

BO: 750mg/day (3 pills per day)
PG: 160mg/day (2 pills per day)
Vitamin D3: 2000 IU/day (50mcg) - Something I know I lack (extreme homebody)
White Peony: 3ml/day (970mg per 1ml)
Dandelion Root: 1000mg/day
Reishi Mushroom: 1200mg/day
EGCG: 200mg/day
Milk Thistle: 1200mg/day
Evening Primrose Oil: 2000mg/day
Chasteberry: 1200mg/day

(Only once budding)
PC: 2 pumps/day

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New Timing (Every 4h):

Morning:
1 pill BO
1 pill PG
6 drops Vitamin D3
1ml White Peony
10 drops Dandelion Root
12 drops Reishi Mushroom
1 pill EGCG
12 drops Milk Thistle
1 pill EPO
1 pill Chasteberry

Mid-Day:
7 drops Vitamin D3
1ml White Peony
10 drops Dandelion Root
12 drops Reishi Mushroom
12 drops Milk Thistle
1 pill Chasteberry

Evening:
2 pill BO
1 pill PG
7 drops Vitamin D3
1ml White Peony
10 drops Dandelion Root
12 drops Reishi Mushroom
1 pill EGCG
13 drops Milk Thistle
1 pill EPO
1 pill Chasteberry

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Notes:
1) May need to adjust the amounts for EGCG, Milk Thistle, EPO, and/or Chasteberry still (but roughly given starting items)
2) May need to adjust timing of items being taken (i.e. make sure Chasteberry is taken with EPO instead of standalone item during mid-day)