[Huggy]

Hi everybody :-)

I am sure I have read in a couple of posts about loosing strength and muscle mass. I have been trying to find those origional posts and do some more research on the matter, but apart from a few comments that it can happen I am struggling to find more info and I am hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction please?

I am on PM, FG and Spearmint at the mo (just over a month so still early days) but wondering if there was something else I should add into the mix to help with overall feminisation?

Keeping it to MBE and not introducing HRT, could I still expect any noticeable reduction in strength and muscle bulk? And if so, what sort of time frame?

I am guessing it won't be one of the earlier effects but wondered if it might be 6-9 months? or perhaps more into the second year sort of thing?

Any observations gratefully received.

Thanks :-)

Huggy.

[Miranda-nata-est]

Hi there,

people's reaction to hormones, be they NBE or HRT vary quite considerably and some certainly claim a loss in strength and muscle mass whilst on NBE.

I can only really give you my example....

Personally, I didn't find much decrease in physical ability despite 12 months of fairly serious levels of PM, spearmint, white paeony and reishi mushroom usage although now I am on HRT, I have found my strength has diminished quite noticeably.

Some of the delayed strength loss I put down to the fact that my lifestyle involves (although to a lesser extent now) a high proportion of physical activities which have probably helped to keep muscle mass loss to a minimum.

There is a tradeoff to keep in mind though - to gain a more feminine physique inherently demands a loss of some muscle mass and strength (unless, of course, you fancy becoming a female shot putter or something like that )

Miranda

[sfem]

I have lost considerable strength and muscle mass over the 6 years I have been doing NBE. I also moved from the end of my 40's into my 50's. My lifestyle is not geared towards keeping muscle mass or strength. I would have been very surprised if I hadn't lost them. I didn't lose them on purpose, it just worked out that way. It is actually one of the few things my wife is unhappy about.

[GoneGirl]

I've lost much of my former strength after 20+ months on HRT. I welcome it, but I do have to figure ways to compensate.

Clara

[Huggy]

Hi everybody.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Was really hoping that there might have been a way to help NBE to be more effective. As even though I am in my 50's now, I still have a physiology that lays down muscle very easily and the Female Shot Putter look doesn't really do it for me (no offence to any Female Shot putters ;-).

So I suppose that under the caveat of YMMV, muscle/strength loss may happen eventually with NBE but it will be a long process. It's the hammer of HRT that melts muscle.

Sfem. I notice you have stayed on the NBE path but have managed muscle reduction. Do you think it was anything in particular in your programme or just that you have been on it long enough?

Thanks again for all you input. Truly appreciated.

Huggy.

[Dianna1395]

I BELIEVE - but have been unable to confirm - that it's possible to maintain strength without increasing mass.
High weight, LOW reps.
As in, a high-intensity program of near-max (90% 1 Rep Max) lifts, done for 3 repetitions, maybe 5. Intent is to hit the fast-twitch fibers, ONLY.
Move to the 6-10 rep range, you'll start to induce hypertrophy, or growth; You won't be able to do a 90% of your 1 Rep Max, though.

Or, you can do lighter weights (FAR lighter, mind), and do them for volume. You'll develop the Type 1 fibers, which are what marathoners use. Think string bean.

Note this is based on my readings; it doesn't work for me. I tried the Stronglifts 5X5 program, based on the previous details. My background was "Lazy lifter who didn't like changing weights due to working out at home, and did lots of swimming after weightlifting."
So I'd curl, deadlift, french curl, squat, hack squat about 50# for an hour of varied lifts... then go swimming for hours. It felt good, but it tore my skin. I was also using sub-maximal weights, and built like a brick sh_thouse. ;-)

But I could almost pick up the 700# motorcycle, and COULD pick up the 500# UPS for the rack.
I was also an 18-year-old male. ;-)

I have tried the "volume" approach for arms, using overhead press, while on an herbal approach.
I believe the best options are:
1. Lose as much weight as possible. (Fat first, then muscle. Especially from upper body.)
2. As Renee Reyes put it, be "arm conscious," and DO NOT work out the arms, or even use them for lifting things, if you can avoid it. Avoid all strength training.... And lifting, if possible. Strength --> Mass.
3. Build strength back up after any sort of transition. Or, if not transitioning, decide the size vs. strength vs. Feminine appearance you'll trade off, and use calisthenics, yoga, or pilates for your upper body workouts.
Lower body can afford some more meat (but try to focus on the butt.)

This is somewhat new to me, but I found out that my training - that Stronglifts 5X5 routine - destroyed me in a sense.
Much too thick upper torso, solid ribs, big(-ish) arms, and the lower body...? OMFG, never knew what was happening. I didn't visibly gain mass, but I DID gain a LOT of tightness (not tone, just tight muscle.)

I can't hit a Seiza kneeling position any more. Forget child's Pose. Downwards dog, my shoulders touch my ears... :-P

Hopefully the Yoga I'm doing now will loosen things up and clean out the body.
But one of the discs talked about wrapping the muscle tight around the bone, keeping minimal size, but becoming stronger.
I think that's got a lot of potential, especially given a few of the yogis I'm met. One looked like a teenager, I swore he was about 16-18... Until I got close, and I could see the wrinkles around the eyes, and realized he must be about 40-45.
So I'm hopeful...

And I'm down 15 # and 1.5% body fat, which isn't bad for 3 weeks. ;-)

++++

I'm convinced it's possible to complete this without losing (much) strength, but I also know hormones affect the metabolism, not just in the "slows it down" sense, but in the sense of, "changes the way the muscle metabolizes ATP, glycogen, glucose, and oxygen." I doubt there's been any real gender-specific (sex-specific, more like) method of testing developed, or used. No point to it, most likely. What works to build muscle for a man will also build muscle for a woman, so.... Why go to the chemical level and determine how the muscles use which stores of energy, and at what point the pathways change?

But maybe we can hit a method to achieve decent strength (for a male) while retaining minimal mass (for feminine appearance). Personally, I don't find muscular women attractive (e.g., Nicole Bass.) But a woman who has built strength and is trim can be very attractive.
And Renee Reyes has some of her early posts up still, so you can compare starting points. (I'm doomed... ;-) )

[sfem]

Sfem. I notice you have stayed on the NBE path but have managed muscle reduction. Do you think it was anything in particular in your programme or just that you have been on it long enough?

It wasn't anything in particular as far as I know. As mentioned, I wasn't trying to lose muscle.

[Huggy]

Hi Dianna

In my yoof I did quite a bit of weight training and it surprises me just how much of that I have maintained down to this day. I can only go by my own experience, but high weights-low reps made me pump up like Popeye! It was just about the most effective way I knew to put on muscle bulk. Which I seemed to be able to do with remarkable ease compared to my training buddies, and was something they would rib me about at every possible occasion. I can only assume I had/have high testosterone levels, as even now it almost feels that just lifting a packet of peanuts my arms shout POWER!

And yes, strength=mass is a pretty accurate equation. It is possible to tweak it a little bit, but the reality is that smaller muscles are not going to be as strong. A choice we are making I suppose.

I am slowly recovering from ME (Chronic Fatigue) and trying very hard to get rid of the (many) excess pounds I accumulated and rebuild my underlying fitness. By happy coincidence the best methods to do that are the low impact/low muscle development programmes that you mention. The trick of course is to maintain the discipline to follow the process through. But dayum, I do miss donuts!

Excellent work on your own efforts by the way!

I do agree that hormones have a profound effect on our metabolism. My family medical history has proved that beyond doubt. A small imbalance one way and the body goes into overdrive and almost eats itself, then a tweak the other way and you are piling on the pounds so fast you can almost see the needle move on the scales while you are standing there!

Of course, here we are talking about NBE and re-educating the body to respond in a more female manor. Far wiser ones than I (thank you Lotus if you read this) have shown that to make real progress it is a matter of finding the right balance, rather than swallowing a few herbs and hoping for the best. But it does seem to be that changing body shape is relegated to more of a side effect of growing boobies than an objective in itself? And what can be done is basically just loose the weight and eventually... hopefully... let the muscle shrink by themselves under the influence of PM?

Huggy

[Dianna1395]

Hi, Huggy.
Didn't see your reply here until today.
Funny that you mention donuts, and yes, I'll lead with that. ;-)

I used to love Dunkin's. More recently, found Honey Dew. But at this point? After eating "clean" for a few years now (mostly, I still indulge in occasional soda and cookies, but Banting approach of adding fat helps avoid the worst now) - Well, I'm noticing not only are donuts not remotely important, but more importantly: I can't eat them without HORRIBLE effects. I went to a DD and got a chocolate donut and one of their Coolattas, and ate them while waiting on a ride from the train.
And spent the rest of the evening wishing I could punch something, ANYTHING, into oblivion. Angry, hostile, grumpy... I haven't gone back for anything, needless to say. (Starbucks has better coffee, I think. ;-) So it's easy.)

It's going to be interesting, if we ever find out the truths about Monsanto and GMO and RoundUp.... (E.G., I'm told that farmers drown their roundup-ready GMO wheat in roundup to kill the plant, which increases yield... but the wheat is never cleaned from that poisoned to death state... So we're eating it in all the refined products...)

Yeah, makes it far easier to stay "on diet." Problem is a day like today, where I tried to stay on diet despite belly telling me it needed food... Yogurt is a sugar product. LOTS of sugar, some protein, NO FAT. So today wasn't a win after all...

Not to mention, due to multiple causes beyond my control I haven't done a decent workout in about a week. (down to 221, though...) Need to get back to that, and keep the momentum. The woman wants in on the morning exercises... I was hoping to get in some belly dance to work hip mobility, maybe not now... (And her daughter might move back, which is just SO lovely...)

But, back to hormones - yeah, wish I could get that moving now. Weird thing is, from Mom's side, I get the coordination and the athletic ability (not much as a male, but more than Dad sent my way.) Dad was a cerebral type...
The males on that side of the family had a tendency to be erratic in weight, shifting regularly. Heavy in June, maybe, light in November, then more heavy in May, light by July... Who knows? Not working for me - my body likes the 200+ range. After HS, anyway - I was 175 in HS. But I eat well, and I put on subcutaneous fat, and it's just not willing to melt away on its own. ;-)


Hope your recovery is going well. As long as the joints are OK, all should be good, I'm guessing - if the body chemistry goes back to normal?

And, for me, if I could go back to my college years or even better, HS, and tell me what i know now (where to buy, what to buy, and where life would take me if I went "male"), I'd do it in a heartbeat, and take my chances. I'd be a different person,and I don't think that'd be a bad thing...
But one of the most important things? CURVES! Have an actual WAIST, for example. Boobs can be bought; feminized skeleton is impossible to come by later in life. :-(
But if I'd known I was going to fall, I would've sat down.

I'm not sure about losing muscle. With my current BF%, I've got a sh!tload of body to burn. I'm trying to follow the advice I'm giving out, but... I only really KNOW swimming and lifting. Swimming Butterfly gave me traps like King Kong. (Didn't like that when I was a teen...) Lifting is OUT until (if) I can get a clear understanding of what happened, and get my shoulders put back together. Both rotator cuffs are in trouble, and the deltoid feels like it shrank to a woman's size... I used to (2 months ago) have a nice cap. Now, the size reduction would be great, IF - Only IF - I didn't feel like I'd lost my strength completely. It's like I can't lift the BAR any more, and 2 months ago was a 125# OHP. For warmups...


No huge size loss, either, so it's upsetting. But I'm realizing all my fat is in my upper body, and I know ways to fix that... :-)

I'm thinking I'll also buy PM and use it as a "hair tonic." See where I get with a few drops every day... As a diagnostic.

[EvaMarie]

Ive lost a LOT of muscle mass on high dosage E and P and T blockers, T has been nearly ZERO for more than a year now... BUT I still have my strength, (less) but still I aint a wimp In fact I find with no T and a lot of E and P I will actually tone up NICE now after exerting myself

Ive lost a lot of the bulk but I don't feel weak... Maybe 30-40% of my old strength and bulk and I always was pretty strong for my size