Thanks, Monika. Lotus, pointed to the Life Extension Foundation, too, and it seems like the way to go. There's a Labcorp office about 15 miles from my home.

CK

Hi girls,

Wow! PM has really clobbered my total testosterone!

I got my semi-annual blood test results today. I requested that a testosterone test be included this time. My total serum testosterone (reference range of 280 to 1100 ng/dl) was 109 ng/dl on Feb. 21

I was taking 2000 mg of PM for 10 weeks, dropping down to 1000 - 1500 mg for the next 10 weeks. I also took 2 X 400 mg caps of Spearmint for 17 days, and 2 X 100 mg caps of Pygeum for 10 days stopping both on Feb 12.

I don't have a breakdown of my T-levels, but it's amazing how much my total T was reduced pretty much by PM alone. That explains the regrowth of scalp hair even before taking any AA. Makes we doubt that I need to take an anti-androgen at all. Comment?

Anyway, the doc prescribed Androgel, which I won't take obviously. I wasn't going to provide an explanation for the low T measurement. I'm going to find a new doctor in the coming months, so there's no point to it. I may have to fess up to the new doc and get a full sex hormone analysis done to make sure my estrogen levels are high enough to prevent bone loss.

Have any others seen their T-levels drop so significantly on PM alone?

Clara

Hi girls,

Wow! PM has really clobbered my total testosterone!

I got my semi-annual blood test results today. I requested that a testosterone test be included this time. My total serum testosterone (reference range of 280 to 1100 ng/dl) was 109 ng/dl on Feb. 21

I don't have a breakdown of my T-levels, but it's amazing how much my total T was reduced pretty much by PM alone. That explains the regrowth of scalp hair even before taking any AA. Makes we doubt that I need to take an anti-androgen at all. Comment?


Have any others seen their T-levels drop so significantly on PM alone?

Clara

Good choice to get it tested Clara,

80 - 85 ng/dL is considered the upper female limit, so your dam close!, congrats on the scalp!


I think I've mentioned it before that over 50 bio-males don't need that much AA. In fact we keep seeing it mentioned about how much our T declines to levels of women with menopause. But in theory it's the E and even PM, that we should get the benefits from of bone loss.

Controlling DHT would still be the logical course. But we still need T at some level to convert to E.

Interesting!, thanks for sharing.

Well I will be able to add to this discussion next week.

I think I've mentioned it before that over 50 bio-males don't need that much AA. In fact we keep seeing it mentioned about how much our T declines to levels of women with menopause. But in theory it's the E and even PM, that we should get the benefits from of bone loss.

Controlling DHT would still be the logical course. But we still need T at some level to convert to E.

Interesting!, thanks for sharing.

Lotus, are you saying that I should still attack my DHT with a daily dose of Pygeum, but forget the Spearmint? Am I correct in my understanding that the total serum testosterone measurement does not include DHT?

Clara

I think I've mentioned it before that over 50 bio-males don't need that much AA. In fact we keep seeing it mentioned about how much our T declines to levels of women with menopause. But in theory it's the E and even PM, that we should get the benefits from of bone loss.

Controlling DHT would still be the logical course. But we still need T at some level to convert to E.

Interesting!, thanks for sharing.

Lotus, are you saying that I should still attack my DHT with a daily dose of Pygeum, but forget the Spearmint? Am I correct in my understanding that the total serum testosterone measurement does not include DHT?

Clara

Yes, IMO.
This might get confusing, sorry didn't have time to wrap it up in a nice bow, so this will have to do. (FYI-for Clara) or those who want to know!


*One test measures the total amount of testosterone in the blood. Another test measures what is called "free" testosterone.


*Testosterone is present in the blood as "free" testosterone (1-4%) or bound. testosterone (~98%). 98% of T is considered unbound


*Typically, a test for total testosterone is used for diagnosis. The total testosterone test measures testosterone that is bound to proteins in the blood (e.g., albumin and sex-hormone binding globulin [SHBG]) as well as testosterone that is not bound. However, a test for free or bioavailable testosterone may be used if, for example, the level of SHBG in the blood is abnormal.


*Measurement of the serum total (free plus protein-bound) testosterone concentration is usually an accurate reflection of testosterone secretion and is the initial test of choice.


*If serum free testosterone is measured, the following points should be kept in mind:


*Serum free testosterone should be performed by equilibrium dialysis and only in those few laboratories that specialize in endocrine testing.
The free testosterone concentration, as calculated from the total testosterone, SHBG, and albumin concentrations, may also be reliable, but there are many different equations for this calculation and they give vastly different results, some of which reflect the results obtained by equilibrium dialysis better than others. Consequently, it is essential that the result be compared with the normal range for the laboratory that performed the assay.


*Free testosterone measured by an analog method, which is the assay most commonly offered by hospital and commercial laboratories, does not correlate with the results of equilibrium dialysis. This test gives misleading information and should never be ordered.

*DHT (DiHydroTestosterone) is formed when testosterone is broken down by the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase.



*The latter may be loosely bound to albumin (38%), the main protein in the fluid portion of the blood, or bound to a specific binding protein called Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) (60%), also called Sex Steroid Binding Globulin (SSBG).

*The binding between testosterone and albumin is not very strong and is easily reversed, so the term bioavailable testosterone (BAT) refers to the sum of free testosterone plus albumin-bound testosterone.

Normal levels
Men
Total Testosterone
270-1070 ng/dL (9-38 nmol/L)

Men
Free testosterone
50-210 pg/mL (174-729 pmol/L)

I think I've mentioned it before that over 50 bio-males don't need that much AA. In fact we keep seeing it mentioned about how much our T declines to levels of women with menopause. But in theory it's the E and even PM, that we should get the benefits from of bone loss.

Controlling DHT would still be the logical course. But we still need T at some level to convert to E.

Interesting!, thanks for sharing.

Lotus, are you saying that I should still attack my DHT with a daily dose of Pygeum, but forget the Spearmint? Am I correct in my understanding that the total serum testosterone measurement does not include DHT?

Clara

Yes, IMO.
This might get confusing, sorry didn't have time to wrap it up in a nice bow, so this will have to do. (FYI-for Clara) or those who want to know!


*One test measures the total amount of testosterone in the blood. Another test measures what is called "free" testosterone.


*Testosterone is present in the blood as "free" testosterone (1-4%) or bound. testosterone (~98%). 98% of T is considered unbound


*Typically, a test for total testosterone is used for diagnosis. The total testosterone test measures testosterone that is bound to proteins in the blood (e.g., albumin and sex-hormone binding globulin [SHBG]) as well as testosterone that is not bound. However, a test for free or bioavailable testosterone may be used if, for example, the level of SHBG in the blood is abnormal.


*Measurement of the serum total (free plus protein-bound) testosterone concentration is usually an accurate reflection of testosterone secretion and is the initial test of choice.


*If serum free testosterone is measured, the following points should be kept in mind:


*Serum free testosterone should be performed by equilibrium dialysis and only in those few laboratories that specialize in endocrine testing.
The free testosterone concentration, as calculated from the total testosterone, SHBG, and albumin concentrations, may also be reliable, but there are many different equations for this calculation and they give vastly different results, some of which reflect the results obtained by equilibrium dialysis better than others. Consequently, it is essential that the result be compared with the normal range for the laboratory that performed the assay.


*Free testosterone measured by an analog method, which is the assay most commonly offered by hospital and commercial laboratories, does not correlate with the results of equilibrium dialysis. This test gives misleading information and should never be ordered.

*DHT (DiHydroTestosterone) is formed when testosterone is broken down by the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase.



*The latter may be loosely bound to albumin (38%), the main protein in the fluid portion of the blood, or bound to a specific binding protein called Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG) (60%), also called Sex Steroid Binding Globulin (SSBG).

*The binding between testosterone and albumin is not very strong and is easily reversed, so the term bioavailable testosterone (BAT) refers to the sum of free testosterone plus albumin-bound testosterone.

Normal levels
Men
Total Testosterone
270-1070 ng/dL (9-38 nmol/L)

Men
Free testosterone
50-210 pg/mL (174-729 pmol/L)

I'd drink white tea to be honest, found one from Swanson that is a white peony tea!

I'd drink white tea to be honest, found one from Swanson that is a white peony tea!

Please explain, Lotus. Reading the FAQ, I came away thinking that an anti-5ar herb like Pygeum would be best to target DHT. I know that white peony also blocks 5ar, but is it as effective as Pygeum in that respect? I thought that white peony is primarily a pro-aromatase herb. Am I off base in my understanding?

Clara (still feeling a bit lost)

I'd drink white tea to be honest, found one from Swanson that is a white peony tea!

Please explain, Lotus. Reading the FAQ, I came away thinking that an anti-5ar herb like Pygeum would be best to target DHT. I know that white peony also blocks 5ar, but is it as effective as Pygeum in that respect? I thought that white peony is primarily a pro-aromatase herb. Am I off base in my understanding?

Clara (still feeling a bit lost)

Hi Clara,

I think they'll have to be certain levels of compromise on our supplements, i.e. While they fulfill certain actions, all the actions we expect aren't fulfilled.

For me it seems White Peony and Reishi have the most complete AA functions for NBE, I try to stay away from anything that counters estrogenic actions. Here's the list from the FAQ section:


White Peony--Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

Reishi-mushrooms significantly reduced levels of 5-alpha reductase, preventing conversion of testosterone into the more potent DHT. High levels of DHT are a risk factor for conditions such as benign prostatatic hypertrophy (BPH), acne, and baldness.


Pygeum- include phytosterols that inhibit the production of dht. Pygeum also reduce's prolacting levels and block the accumulation of cholesterol in the prostate. Prolactin increase's the uptake of testosterone by the prostate. Pygeum reduces the levels of DHT in the blood and reduces the number of sites where the dht can attach.

Saw palmetto-Saw palmetto-Beta-sitosterol is a natural alpha-adrenergic receptor blocker. Prevents DHT from accumulating in prostate tissue that would otherwise cause excessive cell growth and inflammation. The plant steroids in saw palmetto also act on progesterone receptors, an action that causes a reduction in estrogen levels.

Nettle Root--Binds to SHBG (hormone that binds to excess hormones decreasing hormone levels), and decreases 5ar and aromatase. Taking this tends to increase estrogen and testosterone. Would need to be taken with a pro-aromatase, and maybe estrogen.

Licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra)-Anti-androgenic and activates alpha and beta estrogen receptors and blocks 5-ar - Strong, but take in moderation!


Spearmint-anti-androgenic properties reduce the level of free testosterone in the blood, while leaving total testosterone and DHEAS unaffected.




http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=19578

White Peony--Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase - Strong.
A compound found in white peony inhibits the production of testosterone and promotes the activity of aromatase, which converts testosterone into estrogen.

Pygeum- include phytosterols that inhibit the production of dht. Pygeum also reduce's prolacting levels and block the accumulation of cholesterol in the prostate. Prolactin increase's the uptake of testosterone by the prostate. Pygeum reduces the levels of DHT in the blood and reduces the number of sites where the dht can attach.

Based on the above descriptions I see that White Peony is 'strong' and targets both DHT and testosterone, while Pygeum targets DHT only. Since my serum testosterone is already low (109 ng/dl), why would I want to drive it down further? DHT is my main enemy, I believe.

I'm not trying to be a pest on this, Lotus honey, I just want to understand the best course of action given my recent test results.

Clara