Hi.

My goal is to just grow breasts somewhat before BA surgery to give proper areola size and shape without damaging libido and erectile function.

Im very confused about the protocol. 

Please help me with the few questions:

1. What about anti-androgenes? Flutamide subcutaneous or topical reishi extract or bica if i dont want an ED?
   
2. Is it suggested to start with e2+dhea+rc until buds are complete and then move to e2+p4+dhea+rc with dmso as a solvent?
   
3. What is the point of cayenne and bo in addition? Is it for the beginning or later?
   
4. I can't find suggested dosages. Dhea 75mg, p4 20mg, e2 1mg, rc ??
   
5. Which form of e2 to use if I can't find a cream?
   

I dont want to mess up my health, so I'm reading and trying to understand, but it's scattered and contradictory.

Please help. Thanks.

Eh.

Eh

Ernie ....

I see that you're new here, so welcome to the forum.

However, I'd advise a bit of patience with expecting replies to your questions, because that's just the nature of this forum. There is a LOT of science information contained on this website that is not readily available anywhere else.

Our dear friend & science researcher guru Lotus has been posting scientific research related to breast growth for over 11 years. Untold thousands of hours that she's devoted to sharing with us all for our benefit. I'd advise spending time in her science threads, absorbing all the information that she has gifted us.

There is a general search function on the website, but also in each & every thread there is a search function at the bottom of each page to post search terms contained within that specific thread. It can be very beneficial & useful.

I'd also like to remind you and anyone else who seems to have missed it, that Lotus is battling cancer right now and unfortunately her cancer is progressing. Lotus is a dear friend of mine and this is a very distressing and difficult time concerning her health & wellbeing.

Since you're new here, why not make an introductory thread and introduce yourself. State your goals and your current program. Try to be interactive with other members. People here are friendly and generally willing to help others who are new.

Be forewarned that this website ebbs & flows with busy and downtimes. Some weeks it's very active and others not so much. Especially now around the holidays and on weekends. This weekend in the US is a busy football weekend, etc.

Have a little patience here. Settle in and read the science threads. Have fun & mingle with others. You might enjoy yourself and learn something, too.

-S

Hi.

My goal is to just grow breasts somewhat before BA surgery to give proper areola size and shape without damaging libido and erectile function.

Im very confused about the protocol. 

Please help me with the few questions:

1. What about anti-androgenes? Flutamide subcutaneous or topical reishi extract or bica if i dont want an ED?
   
2. Is it suggested to start with e2+dhea+rc until buds are complete and then move to e2+p4+dhea+rc with dmso as a solvent?
   
3. What is the point of cayenne and bo in addition? Is it for the beginning or later?
   
4. I can't find suggested dosages. Dhea 75mg, p4 20mg, e2 1mg, rc ??
   
5. Which form of e2 to use if I can't find a cream?
   

I dont want to mess up my health, so I'm reading and trying to understand, but it's scattered and contradictory.

Please help. Thanks.

What Stevenator just said, the forum is often quiet and replies are slow, that's just how it is. I'll try to help you with your questions the best I can, because you're mentioning things that I'm doing on the side of the core of the topical protocol.

1. That's a problem, you have to suppress T enough of you will not get substancial breast development. You can't have both at the same time, you can't have full male function and develop female sexondary sex characteristics. That only happens when your hormone balance is female and that makes stuff not function really well. You might get ED and you might make yourself infertile in the process. There's not a easy solution to this, its been talked to death many times and the fact is that you can't "be both", that's just not how our bodies work. You can get a sort of working compromise, but its difficult.

2. I don't know where you got this order from because the core of the topical protocol is DHEA, progesterone and estradiol. You seem to be mixing the idea of the topicals together with typical progression of feminising HRT program. Red Clover extract is quite new addition to the protocol, the science of it is exciting, I'm in the process of experimenting on it, as are few others, expect more information about its effictiveness in near future. I was the one who added DMSO as absorbing (and fat cell division exciting) agent to the topical protocol and few others have picked it up since, it has been very helpful addition along with dermarolling to aid absorbtion, but its not absolutely essential. It should be dosed with moderation and absolutely do not use it in its pure form! The one I'm using is a 20% cream so its easier to dose in moderation. The cream also works as a carrier to oils and DHEA. I will try to find studies and more information about DMSO some time and post them as that hasn't been thoroughly talked about yet.

3. I took up the idea of Cayenne extract with BO from the thread Bovine ovary vodka. The idea of cayenne extract is that it causes warmth and ends up helping blood circulation, there is also speculation about it possibly causing a heparin release by mast cell granulation, (Don't ask me to explain how that works, I'm quoting from memory and can't possibly quote the scientific explanation of what this means.) this causes hepatocyte growth factor levels to rise and HGF enables IGF-1 to work more efficiently, again this is just me quoting from memory, its all about boosting growth factors and hormones responsible for breast development and this is one of the less explored sides of it. Note that elevating HGF a lot could be potentially dangerous as these growth factors are also hugely active in cancer cells. So if you have any reason to suspect being sick with cancer, absolutely stay the hell away from stuff that excites growth factors. Anyway, the point og Bovine Ovary in cayenne extract is that the extract contains 65-70% alcohol in which the BO powder absorbs into. Also the alcohol will break the ceratin "plug" on the areola which allows better absorbtion, this is helpful with ALL topical items as anything which enhances absorbtion will let way higher amount to pass the skin barrier. Note that the combination of dermarolling, DMSO and the alcohol of the cayenne extract all aim to this same goal. About why BO is topically functioning and a good idea, read Lotus's latest posts on the Project X thread, the BO & estradiol connection is well explained over there.

4. DHEA as cream 60mg split to 30mg twice a day, or to save money get micronised DHEA and open the capsules using the powder, they're typically 25mg ones, I use 75mg dose, so three capsules. Progesterone can be dosed higher if possible, I'm taking 20mg from cream and 200mg from a capsule, that's quite a bit and it works just fine. You could of course use more cream to get the dosing higher as 20mg isn't much. For estradiol I've been taking 1mg as estradiol hemihydrate gel.

5. Get estrogel of some sort. Grey marker DIY HRT shops sell it, we will not disclose any sources for it openly, but you can easily do a search online to find them.

Great idea to go health first, but there is no contradictory information on this thread at least. The core idea of the topical protocol is very simple to follow and it has been outlined pretty well both in this thread and elsewhere. It only gets more complicated with the side show of absorbtion enhancers etc. I'm responsible for throwing a whole lot more into the broth on my own, I try to always explain that the core idea is a very simple one, its nothing more than DHEA, Prog and Estradiol which I suggest everybody to start out with, once you get the hang of it, then branch out into more complicated program if you feel like experimenting.

I kinda have a feeling of responsibility, that I have to hop onto my thread and post about all the side show of topicals, go through each item once again and explain why and how the best I can.

Lara, out of curiosity, do you take breaks??

Hi.

My goal is to just grow breasts somewhat before BA surgery to give proper areola size and shape without damaging libido and erectile function.

Im very confused about the protocol. 

Please help me with the few questions:

1. What about anti-androgenes? Flutamide subcutaneous or topical reishi extract or bica if i dont want an ED?
   
2. Is it suggested to start with e2+dhea+rc until buds are complete and then move to e2+p4+dhea+rc with dmso as a solvent?
   
3. What is the point of cayenne and bo in addition? Is it for the beginning or later?
   
4. I can't find suggested dosages. Dhea 75mg, p4 20mg, e2 1mg, rc ??
   
5. Which form of e2 to use if I can't find a cream?
   

I dont want to mess up my health, so I'm reading and trying to understand, but it's scattered and contradictory.

Please help. Thanks.

What Stevenator just said, the forum is often quiet and replies are slow, that's just how it is. I'll try to help you with your questions the best I can, because you're mentioning things that I'm doing on the side of the core of the topical protocol.

1. That's a problem, you have to suppress T enough of you will not get substancial breast development. You can't have both at the same time, you can't have full male function and develop female sexondary sex characteristics. That only happens when your hormone balance is female and that makes stuff not function really well. You might get ED and you might make yourself infertile in the process. There's not a easy solution to this, its been talked to death many times and the fact is that you can't "be both", that's just not how our bodies work. You can get a sort of working compromise, but its difficult.

2. I don't know where you got this order from because the core of the topical protocol is DHEA, progesterone and estradiol. You seem to be mixing the idea of the topicals together with typical progression of feminising HRT program. Red Clover extract is quite new addition to the protocol, the science of it is exciting, I'm in the process of experimenting on it, as are few others, expect more information about its effictiveness in near future. I was the one who added DMSO as absorbing (and fat cell division exciting) agent to the topical protocol and few others have picked it up since, it has been very helpful addition along with dermarolling to aid absorbtion, but its not absolutely essential. It should be dosed with moderation and absolutely do not use it in its pure form! The one I'm using is a 20% cream so its easier to dose in moderation. The cream also works as a carrier to oils and DHEA. I will try to find studies and more information about DMSO some time and post them as that hasn't been thoroughly talked about yet.

3. I took up the idea of Cayenne extract with BO from the thread Bovine ovary vodka. The idea of cayenne extract is that it causes warmth and ends up helping blood circulation, there is also speculation about it possibly causing a heparin release by mast cell granulation, (Don't ask me to explain how that works, I'm quoting from memory and can't possibly quote the scientific explanation of what this means.) this causes hepatocyte growth factor levels to rise and HGF enables IGF-1 to work more efficiently, again this is just me quoting from memory, its all about boosting growth factors and hormones responsible for breast development and this is one of the less explored sides of it. Note that elevating HGF a lot could be potentially dangerous as these growth factors are also hugely active in cancer cells. So if you have any reason to suspect being sick with cancer, absolutely stay the hell away from stuff that excites growth factors. Anyway, the point og Bovine Ovary in cayenne extract is that the extract contains 65-70% alcohol in which the BO powder absorbs into. Also the alcohol will break the ceratin "plug" on the areola which allows better absorbtion, this is helpful with ALL topical items as anything which enhances absorbtion will let way higher amount to pass the skin barrier. Note that the combination of dermarolling, DMSO and the alcohol of the cayenne extract all aim to this same goal. About why BO is topically functioning and a good idea, read Lotus's latest posts on the Project X thread, the BO & estradiol connection is well explained over there.

4. DHEA as cream 60mg split to 30mg twice a day, or to save money get micronised DHEA and open the capsules using the powder, they're typically 25mg ones, I use 75mg dose, so three capsules. Progesterone can be dosed higher if possible, I'm taking 20mg from cream and 200mg from a capsule, that's quite a bit and it works just fine. You could of course use more cream to get the dosing higher as 20mg isn't much. For estradiol I've been taking 1mg as estradiol hemihydrate gel.

5. Get estrogel of some sort. Grey marker DIY HRT shops sell it, we will not disclose any sources for it openly, but you can easily do a search online to find them.

Great idea to go health first, but there is no contradictory information on this thread at least. The core idea of the topical protocol is very simple to follow and it has been outlined pretty well both in this thread and elsewhere. It only gets more complicated with the side show of absorbtion enhancers etc. I'm responsible for throwing a whole lot more into the broth on my own, I try to always explain that the core idea is a very simple one, its nothing more than DHEA, Prog and Estradiol which I suggest everybody to start out with, once you get the hang of it, then branch out into more complicated program if you feel like experimenting.

I kinda have a feeling of responsibility, that I have to hop onto my thread and post about all the side show of topicals, go through each item once again and explain why and how the best I can.


Hey just trying to clarify on this post. Shouldnt Progesterone wait until E2 has time to develope buds? So if Ernie is starting out, they should drop the progesterone for ~6months? 

Thank you Stevenator and Lara.

[/size][/i]Hey just trying to clarify on this post. Shouldnt Progesterone wait until E2 has time to develope buds? So if Ernie is starting out, they should drop the progesterone for ~6months? 

Fem394, I did address this question previously.

Hello! Ive read in Project X that progesterone should not be started until breasts start budding, so is it a bad idea to start a topical program without buds?

Thanks

Hi fem, in (cis-female) puberty breast buds form first before progesterone is stimulated, which happens at stage 4 in the tanner stage after her first menstruation. Letting E2 properly intiate breast buds before adding progesterone helps to improve the essential duct work for proper elongation of the breasts while progesterone develops the essential side branching and improves breast maturation. Yes, wait till you develop breast buds before starting the TCP.

Progesterone Is Important for Transgender Women’s Therapy—Applying Evidence for the Benefits of Progesterone in Cis-Women 
Progesterone plus E2 leads to optimal breast maturation and size along with elimination of facial and male pattern body hair, one of the important goals of transgender women is to develop mature and physiological breasts (that are classified as Tanner stage 5) (26). However, currently, the majority seeks breast augmentation surgery (3), because E/E2 plus antiandrogen therapy means the areola stays small (≤2.5 cm, ≤1 inch) and masculine, and breasts remain Tanner stage 3 (27). P4 is necessary for the ductal branching within the breast (and hence, for lactation) (28) and eventual maturation leading to the enlargement of the normal cis-women's areola diameter of ≥3 cm (7). Currently reviewed evidence (29, 30) is inadequate to assess the breast effects of transgender women’s CHT, because breast size, not areolar diameter (the primary difference between Tanner 3 and 5 stages) (26), has so far gone unreported except by one research group (7). The areolar size changes in puberty and during development of ovulatory menstrual cycles, as well as in transgender women on CHT, require further study.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/4/1181/5270376?login=false

I would suggest looking into adding progesterone cream after breast buds come in. Which hepls to add side branching and mature the overall shape of the breasts snd increased feminization. Look back in this thread covering using progesterone cream. If you need help find PC let me know. Additionally, down the road you can add DHEA. Progesterone Cream dosage starts at a ¼ teaspoon per breast... or enough to cover a thin layer over each breast.

Topical Estradiol enhances the stimulatory effect of insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) on mammary development and growth hormone-induced IGF-I messenger ribonucleic acid
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7867584/
E2 significantly enhanced the effects of IGF-I on mammary development. Plus, E2 treatment improves collagen synthesis by making new collagen.
Topical application of E2 stimulates insulin-like growth factor receptors and increases the production of insulin-like growth factors from fibroblasts (Ashcroft et al., 1997), which in turn induces lipogenesis.

DHEA dosage, 30 mg, cutaneous application, twice daily and (E) DHEA, 30 mg, cutaneous application, twice daily. 
 Meaning, using DHEA cream at 30mg 2x per day. 

Lara, out of curiosity, do you take breaks??

Hi SweetO, its been a while.

I do take breaks, mostly to let skin recover as daily dermarolling needs little breaks every now and then. I typically do two 1-3 day breaks per month. Right now I've kept going for a while without as I'm growing so well right now, shooting on all barrels with it as I feel that the latest additions of RC extract and olive oil shot are working wonders.

Thanks L! With DHEA too I guess? I am worried about its excessive use ...

Hi Lotus!

Maybe you could sort this out. 

I've been reading a lot about HRT and the products that are used generally in the European Union, Asia and the U.S. Idk why but I had this belief the products we see OTC (such as progesterone cream) were effective for everything (i.e transition, menopause, etc) but turns out IT'S JUST FOR SYMPTOMS RELIEF. -.-' So, I dug into the doses as well and damn it makes sense why a lot of people who wants to transition need to see a specialist in order to achieve their goals. The doses are   low, very low. And generally safe, unless you do the opposite lol. ALSO the amount of s.h.i.t they use as preservatives, that was shocking too  ...


So I've been researching a bit on what could work for increasing progesterone (I know you stated Smoky Mountains is a good brand, I've purchased it already) and I found pregnenolone. What are your thoughts about this hormone? 

 Would be okay to use it if we cannot have access to a good progesterone source, such as micronised progesterone? 

Lara, out of curiosity, do you take breaks??

Hi SweetO, its been a while.

I do take breaks, mostly to let skin recover as daily dermarolling needs little breaks every now and then. I typically do two 1-3 day breaks per month. Right now I've kept going for a while without as I'm growing so well right now, shooting on all barrels with it as I feel that the latest additions of RC extract and olive oil shot are working wonders.

I started BO this week and want to try RC extract and Coconut Oil.  How many drops are you using.  Love your posts and your growth!
               hugs,  Brandi