[Highhope]

I am convinced that this is worth the effort. After a bit more research I have decided to try a new plan:
1) For DHT reduction I am on 5mg Finasteride
2) For estrogen I am taking Ainterol PM 3X daily (500mg).
3) To help prolactin level I will add Fenugreek 1X daily (500mg).
4) To increase HGH I am adding L-lysine and L-Arginine 1000mg daily
5) To reduce weight the increase in HGH will help. I will use high
intensity exercise (google how to increase hgh naturally to get a better explanation of this). I use a tread mill for my exercise which should not increase muscle mass (except some thigh and calf I suppose). I will eliminate all simple sugars (fructose and glucose from soda, candy etc.)
6) To provide for breast enlargement I will not shy away from fried foods or complex carbohydrates.
7) Work the plan and see what happens. I hope to drop 20 pounds and drop to 150 pounds on my 5'6" frame.

Highhope

[elainecd]

Started my NBE in aug of 2014. Moderate growth by Jan 2015.
My weight then was 225~230. this was down from early 2014 where my weight had been 240~245. I got to the 225~230 range in spring of 2014 by cutting out all soft drinks and the tonic water for my vodka. They all use high fructose corn syrup which packs on the weight.

So in Jan 2015, 5 months after starting NBE, which by then was 2000 mg of PM, reishi extract and white peony extract, I tried a diet with my wife.
It's called "3 day diet" or "military diet".

My results were amazing. I began cycling it week on the diet, then a week off and a week on and by May 2015 i had reached 2015~218 steady. By this summer I reached 207~210.
Went back on the diet 2 successive weeks in October and got to 205~206. I have eased back up to steady 208.
My NBE had slowed by April then in June it had gained nicely in the bust over an inch and lost an inch in underbust.

These were my June pics http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=21585&pid=153762#pid153762
as I approached my late August anniversary they had developed even more.
i took a little break in September, in october I ran out waiting for more pM and am back on track.

Oh and I cut out the reishi early 2015 because i think it was hard on my liver. Started a 1/2 of a lemon tea in the morning and feel much better there.

I can say since I dress from time to time, I really wanted to lose weight.
You're healthier, your breasts are more prominent and clothes fit better.

Keep your NBE routine, results come slowly, start a good weight loss program and I'm betting you'll like the result.

My goal is to get down to 185~190 by next spring. I'm 64 yo and when I was 20 yo i weighed 170. I'm 6'3". So that seems an attainable goal.

Good Luck!

[Dianna1395]

I am convinced that this is worth the effort. After a bit more research I have decided to try a new plan:
1) For DHT reduction I am on 5mg Finasteride
2) For estrogen I am taking Ainterol PM 3X daily (500mg).
3) To help prolactin level I will add Fenugreek 1X daily (500mg).
4) To increase HGH I am adding L-lysine and L-Arginine 1000mg daily
5) To reduce weight the increase in HGH will help. I will use high
intensity exercise (google how to increase hgh naturally to get a better explanation of this). I use a tread mill for my exercise which should not increase muscle mass (except some thigh and calf I suppose). I will eliminate all simple sugars (fructose and glucose from soda, candy etc.)
6) To provide for breast enlargement I will not shy away from fried foods or complex carbohydrates.
7) Work the plan and see what happens. I hope to drop 20 pounds and drop to 150 pounds on my 5'6" frame.

Highhope

High Hope,
Increasing HGH isn't actually too hard. Making it really meaningful, that can be - might cause some discomfort. Here's a good (?) approach, depending on how you grow.

Squats. Heavy squats. LOTS of squats.
- Lower body is where we have most of our strength. Put those muscles to work. google "squat challenge" for example. this will boost HGH - it will also boost T. :-( But it builds a nice butt. Also, look into doing isolated butt exercises, especially the gluteus medius if not a GG. Widens the hips, and combined with twists like Pinnochia has mentioned, you'll build the appearance of a waist.
You'll want to follow more of a bodybuilding routine for the squats, though - about a 10-rep range to build muscle (hypertrophy).
Another few, a glute bridge; hip thrusts; dirty dogs or fire hydrants (I believe same movement); Clamshells.
Note that "Heavy" is relative, and doesn't mean "kill yourself." Experiment, but you can probably achieve your gal with a 50# squat. You can start with just bodyweight, too - the rest period vs. the set is more important that out-and-out weight, but you'll need to add weight to challenge the muscle, eventually.
That part will get you HIT - High Intensity Training. Fast, aggressive, explosive. Try to do more, faster, but without sacrificing form.

Next, burn fat: HIIT. High Intensity Interval Training. ALSO builds HGH, and ALSO builds muscle. Much more flexibility here, squats, bridging, burpees, squat thrusts, can even manage on a treadmill or elliptical. And you can get fancy here, too: Do an HIIT segment, then do a set of situps or crunches (I prefer situps, crunches are too limited.) Or leg raises, or Dog/Cat poses with the abs, or a Vacuum pose. Then get back on the machine/back to an interval. It's "spot" reduction, sort of - because you flood that area with blood, you'll move out more fat for energy. Minor difference for me (35% BF), but excellent if you just need to lose the last 10 pounds. (http://www.livestrong.com/article/556755...-fat-loss/)

Lastly, if you're up for it - "fasted cardio" in a low-energy sense, actually works. This is from an article on T-nation, but the guy gets up in the morning, has some water, and does a slow walk on the treadmill for about an hour. Rate of 3.0 or so, just pushing the heartrate up from resting - nothing hard or fancy. The body has no glycogen stores for the muscles to use as food, so it MUST draw from fat. This makes you able to whittle that middle (or wherever - think back of triceps) "quickly".

After that, you'll need to look into manipulating Insulin, playing with Leptin, intermittent fasting, etc. :-) Endless ability to challenge the body.

Decide which step you need first. If you want to work the booty, a body building type of Squat-based plan with "fasted cardio" walking might be easiest.
Try this as a guideline for the squat workout, and add to it as strength and ability allow:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/101159...ter-booty/

You could almost do that linked workout as HIIT three days a week, and strength three days a week - just by changing the loads. ;-)
For example: I'll step up to the bar for warmups, and do 10 bodyweight squats. then, 20 loaded squats, pushing at a "good pace." Fast, but not enough to build momentum and throw the bar up and off my shoulders.
then, start loading it, and build up to my top load (current 225#.)

You should be able to do about 150# right now, no training. ;-) And it gives the T something to do, other than make nasty hairs where we don't want them, or remove hairs where we DO want them, or remove boobie potentials.... But you'll want to watch carefully and adjust, of course.

And, I'm slanted towards "you can never be too strong." Too big, yes, too strong, no. ;-) So think it over with that bias in mind. And then go be a beast, whether doing it all with plyometrics or HIIT or heavy lifts, or whatever you really like and feels good.
Recalibrate as necessary, and as goals change. Load-bearing exercises are preferred to me because it means more bone density... less chance of osteoporosis. though again, it doesn't mean kill yourself. ;-)

Anyway - I need to get to the gym. I want to grow my breasts, but I also want to slim down. Breasts have to wait while I manage my weight. ;-)

-Jean

[Highhope]

Thank you Elaine and Jean. Your replies are most helpful.
Jean, do you take anything to help with the HGH growth? How many HIT reps would you do during a 30 minute workout session. How often do you do a HIT session - every other day? Every day? Twice a day?

Thanks very much for your help.

Highhope

[Skye is on fire]

I'm no loner on herbals, though the concept is the same, but I lost weight while on hrt. It won't hurt. I'm doing just fine. Although everyone's body response is different, just remember, as you are releasing stored fat, you are also releasing toxins and amongst those, hormones -more specifically, estrogens. When I loose weight on herbals, the effects seemed intensified. I would definitely get estrogen effects like my breast becoming fuller and my emotions of feeling "feminine " intensified. This just recently happened to me in the last 6 months before I restarted hrt. My plan this time was to loose the male pattern fat to start from flat to fem. Although, I've been already developed (beast-wise) and at my max genetic potential, I'm able to fit in possibly a 34B. So, being I'm assuming that you don't have development yet, but you can always add more fat on later and your new breast will report in kind. Hopefully, this personal testimonial will give you some food for thought.

[Dianna1395]

High Hope,
I think HIIT is pretty brutal, especially when just starting out. If your heart's OK, go for 30 minutes, doing a "set" of 20 seconds exercise, 10 seconds recovery, for several sets. The more, the better. If it's an issue, rest more, and build up to it.

For HIT, it's more a question of how much effort you're putting in. Gasping for breath without killing yourself is the goal. I manage that with lower weight, actually, and best options are power moves: Squats, Cleans, Deadlifts, in that order. (Maybe reverse cleans and squats, not sure. I go from Cleaning the weight into a push press. Cleaning the weight from the floor, or from a hang position, WILL have you gasping quickly.)

As to sets, I'm TOLD that 5 sets of 5 reps works well, using heavy weight. If I don't do a lot of foam rolling and soft tissue work afterwards, I get tight, hard legs. If I do the same weight for sets of 10 reps, I'm fine afterwards. Keeping that in mind, here's the normal progression:

2 sets warmup: 45-pound bar by itself. (Trying to do front squats here; builds quads more, which will make for a more feminine appearance, I think. Women are supposedly often quad-dominant... So makes for more curve.) Also, I'll do a slow eccentric (lowering), hold for a second, then try to explode upwards.
2 sets / 10+ reps per set / @$$ to grass squat, get your butt DOWN to lengthen muscles.

2 sets, light weights: 25# plate each side, BACK squat.
2 sets / 10+ reps per set / A2G again, play with the stretch.

Repeat that with 50# each side, I prefer 2 25# plates each side over say a 45# and 5# together. Form will be stricter here, my knees go over my toes - long body, shorter legs. Ideally, the knees don't go beyond toes.

Up to 75# each side, 5 sets of 5 reps each, careful on form. Don't rest too much here, but you'll be slowing down.

Now, if the "heavy"is too much, you can adjust it a few different ways. Make a complex of moves, say - Deadlift to Clean from Hang, to Overhead or Push Press, working them in a series with minimal rest. I think we need to adjust the sequence, maybe NOT develop the upper body? But it's difficult to do a complex on the lower body without killing yourself. (Meaning, total exhaustion, which will reduce exercising, which will reduce calorie burn and muscle development. YES, you want muscle development - muscle burns more calories even at rest. Also looks better than fat. )

If you're looking at it from a lighter weight routine, you can do more explosive power. Try to keep reps in 3-5 range, from my readings - I still have problems with fewer reps. But where I'm comfortable, 10-12 reps, is where the muscle grows largest. So I think it's not working out well for feminization.

You can work the muscle in different ways, too, to achieve your objectives, but I'll defer to real experts on that. ;-)
I got most of my mass through swimming and bodybuilding exercises (10 rep sets with lighter weights.) When I was skinny, I was 180 pounds, and could've packed on about 20 pounds of muscle. Stretch marks I have prove it, from the swimming and lifting I did do. (I was lifting 50 pounds at that time, and too lazy to change weights for each exercise - so, if I could curl it, that was the weight for everything. Then Mom and Dad chimed in, Mom said I was getting too big, and shouldn't be working out that way. Dad complained I wasn't doing real exercise, like yard work... :-P But I digress.)
I lost significant strength getting skinny. I'd avoid going every day for 4 hours and doing 2 hours of cardio, which I did for 2 years, to drop from 240 - 180. Chased the calorie burn too much, and didn't do the diet enough. So make sure you have a really good diet.

And the HGH? Just the squats. It's the exertion that builds it, the larger the muscle, the better. Largest muscles are lower body. Quadriceps, Gluteals, then hamstrings, abs, lower legs. Upper body you can ALMOST ignore, but symmetry is better than a heavy bottom and no top. Do something "girly" for the upper body, just to keep the skin tight and avoid the triceps fat deposits women get. Also, rowing, swimming, etc, but be careful about developing the Trapezius at the neck. I did Butterfly for one summer, I can't keep bra straps up, PERIOD. Makes for a visual triangle, which is MALE, not feminine.... ;-) That development was over 20 years ago now... Never went away.

Another option, important if you're prone to building mass: Bodyweight calisthenics, again back to squat variations, but you can do them for volume and build a pretty decent (strong enough, resilient, flexible) body. This would take the routine above and modify it a bit to exaggerate movements, instead of increasing weight.

Calisthenics, do bodyweight squats for the warmup sets; go for 20, work to that number of reps per set. Then, go to Jump Squats, try to go higher each time, and go as low as possible without losing control. You don't want to bang your butt on the ground, or fall over.
Then, go for the 5X5 routine with alternating Pistol squats, which are one-legged squats. This would actually make it 10 sets. 5 right, 5 Left. Slow and controlled. Then do some jump squats again, to loosen up and keep elastic. If you can breathe, you're not going hard enough. ;-)

Over time, you can build that up, too. Goblet squats to add weight, using a kettlebell, dumbbell, plate, even jugs of water. Try to rest less; try to squat lower; pause at the bottom of the squat so there's no momentum. Explode more when you push back up. Drop at body weight, then explode up with a weight from the ground, and clean it to shoulders.
Even work in other exercises while doing the sets. for example, at the gym yesterday, while doing the sets above? I also integrate in stretching and situps and jump squats (not all at once, but toss in situps near the beginning, and when going heavy, do jump squats to improve my power.) Keeps you gasping, keeps the blood moving. Can also do butt exercises like a hip thrust, kettlebell swing, tablemaker, or glute bridge. Hold for 10 seconds, and squeeze the butt tight. Then get back to the squats...

If I could be a decent guinea pig, I'd develop a program specifically for "us." We don't develop like genetic girls, so we need to be more picky... But I keep gravitating to STRONG, STRONG, STRONG (Side effect of assault, I guess, and I build mass pretty well.) And I can't ask someone else to be my guinea pig, either. If someone wants to volunteer, we can try it, but I can't guarantee quick results. I know ALL THE TRICKS... But if I don't do the trade, knowing the tricks is meaningless. E.G., intermittent fasting raises GH by something like 2,000 %, I think it was? But... From what baseline? And if I'm not working out, what will grow? I'm in IT, can't the HGH hit my brain and breasts? Instead of biceps, triceps, lats? :-P

Does make me think I need to look at my program more seriously, though. I'll have to try a few things and post back...

[tanysquirrel]

Hi, Bobbi.
I'm in similar straights to Huggy, looking to lose the gut ASAP, while using PM et al to try and grow the breasts.
My objective is to aid development of the breast tissues while burning fat.

From your response, it would sound like the PM mostly directs fat to the breasts, which I don't want (as a primary.) I want breasts - not fat mounds. Does that make sense?

I'm willing to stall some of the squishy aspects in favor of glands, ducts, connective tissue. I can lose the belly while doing that - I hope! If this is completely wrong, please correct me. I figure I have about 80 pounds to lose, so losing has to come first, and just having fat breasts doesn't seem too useful anyway.

Appreciate any guidance.

-Jean

Jean, sounds like then, you would want herbs that promote lactation, to develop the ducts..
Anise, licorice root, fenugreek, especially goats rue all galactagogues ( promote and increase milk). Though if you dont want to lactate, use the herbs until you feel the growth of the ducts.

I have found some success using anise oil extract in my breast massage oils..i can feel the ducts when i massage my breasts. I bought the extract in the spice aisle at the supermarket. It does have alcohol in it, be advised.

[Dianna1395]

Thank you Elaine and Jean. Your replies are most helpful.
Jean, do you take anything to help with the HGH growth? How many HIT reps would you do during a 30 minute workout session. How often do you do a HIT session - every other day? Every day? Twice a day?

Thanks very much for your help.

Highhope

High Hope,
I responded somewhat on auto-pilot.
I spend hours in the gym.... I think that might be obvious, but wanted to mention it. ;-)

For a half-hour session? Weight is much lower, fewer sets, and shorter rest periods.

Try this:
Warmup:
1. 1 Set of 20 bodyweight squats.
Load the bar - see below.

2. 1 set of 10 reps @ "heavy" weights (@ Start)
3. Jump squats - get low, be explosive and go for vertical height. Meaning, butt to the ground at bottom, and try for toes over 5' off the ground. (You can tuck up the legs to add to ab development. Be careful.)
4. Situps or leg raises (I prefer situps - they actually help the back for me. Also, you can do a leg raise variation of pull legs to chest; push straight overhead; let them down slowly to the floor. Even better if you can keep a small spacer under the butt, to allow more stretch on the eccentric, and go below the horizontal/ parallel to floor.)

5. Rest and stretch hamstrings (Touch toes)
Superset those (2-5) and repeat about three times (Build up to that.)

Cleans (from comfortable position - a hang clean, power clean from blocks, or from the floor as right for you.) ("Heavy" weights again.) (Suggest 3 sets of 10, when you build up to it.)

Light dumbbells to finish:
Superset (No rests) between biceps curl, triceps row, overhead press variations. (Substitute pushups, dips, some sort of overhead lift, E.G., using a gallon jug of water in each hand - about 8 pounds. Eventually, work in headstands, then handstands, then work to wall handstand pushups, in you can. I can't, so no shame in knowing limitations.)

If you're hitting a commercial gym, look for an assisted pushup/dip machine. You can reduce the weight that way, especially on dips - try to do a triceps press-up from the bench, feet on the floor or another bench. DO NOT go for a "Pump," that feeling is a sign you're going the wrong way (hypertrophy or growth of size).

At the end, work in smaller muscles that need attention.
Fire Hydrants, Twists, scissor kicks, bridging, whatever fits to balance the body.

Do foam rolling and stretches afterwards.

Probably more like an hour than 30 minutes.
Also, might want to mix some of it up - put the cleans at the end, use light weights, and get back into an anaerobic state. Gasping is good, if you need to lose fat. And time permitting, you can then do steady-state or light interval cardio, and you'll burn mostly fat. Might want to have a protein shake first, though. Stave off catabolism of the hard-earned muscles.

Think endurance trainer for upper body, and strength with targeted size (Glutes, quads) on lower body. BTW, you could split the two supersets into opposite days, and make it probably fit about a half hour of lifting. Upper body on Day A, lower on Day B. If you miss a day, start back with lower body.

Loading plates: I think you'd want to determine your goal here. Most guys want more/bigger/faster. (Even I want more strength and faster muscles.)
Start with the bar. If that's easy, add 5 pounds (total) next time. Repeat the process until you're "too slow" by your estimates, or until you can't do proper form, or you get stuck.

If doing body weight, find ways to increase the load an time under tension (In the important muscles.) Whatever you can hold, do a goblet squat... More reps; pause at bottom; one leg instead of both; etc.

When you are comfortable at a weight, refine the form first. Make it perfect. I'm leaning at 225#; can't progress until I can ensure I am always perfectly vertical. This isn't breast growth. ;-) We SHOULD be patient and make it perfect BEFORE we move on. ;-)

For comparison, I can spend an hour on my squats. Legs like stone, but need to be loosened back up. (Energy doesn't flow well in most stone. Some crystals, sure, but crystals break. We can't be that way. Need to be soft, flexible, flowing, graceful. I'm planning to slack WAY off once the fat is under control. Reduce the weight, to reduce the stress; increase reps to compensate. That's actually the experimental approach I though about trying above; we'll see what happens.)

What I think is impossible, depending on starting point and actual hormonal makeup, is using a woman's workout program, if you have a masculine hormonal environment. Won't work as hoped. And Cardio works against you, so long-slow-distance is bad. Do 30 minutes of burpees instead. (And if you live, that's REALLY amazing. ;-) )

Change the hormonal environment (EG, HRT), it'll work more like a woman's routine would. But you'll still have more T receptors than she would I think, and need to watch development of the hard musculature.

If getting pumped, stop;
If getting hard, reduce weight and/or intensity.
If not breathing hard, find a way to create oxygen deficit.

I'm talking too much again, but hey, this is fun to me. ;-)

OH, MAJOR points:
KEEP A JOURNAL.
1 - weights lifted, exercises, sets, rest periods, things you tested, if they worked, etc.
2 - food journal (where I usually fail) Learn portions; record all food; check macronutrients (fat, protein, carbs, fiber) and make sure that's good. You shouldn't need supplements, besides maybe a mutivitamin just in case, and a protein shake or easy source of protein when you finish lifting. (Avocado; oatmeal; turkey; whole milk; something like that. Meals are better than shakes. good options here: http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/weightlo...P#image=30) You want protein and a little "sugar" (light carbs) to get the body away from any catabolism. NOT so much you spike your insulin! No candy! Maybe some fruit; not juice. Protein will also work to tell the body the stress is over now, you can leave the muscles alone to grow.

So, all of that together...?
I'd say do upper/lower body splits 5-6 days a week; yoga or pilates the remainder. And all the other things you can, walking a lot, dancing, bicycling, swimming, etc. Body needs to be used, not sit all day. But if you do a split, try the lower body three days a week, upper two. (Or do pilates or yoga for upper body, probably adequate. I just like steel.)

If you want to hash out a program, we could go over it in PM, and present the final results to everyone, then refine it and show progress.
Well, your success, anyway - I'm sort of a lost cause for about the first 50 pounds. :-P

46" chest
49" across nipples
40" waist
43" (?) hips
16" neck
15.5" biceps
7.5" around wrist
26" upper thigh
235#
35% body fat.

I'm the type people avoid in the well-lit police station.... ;-)

[Dianna1395]

So, tonight's experiment showed me I've been pursuing my objectives the wrong way.
One day of heavy might be great, but I'm doing exercises that will build muscle too much.

I'll see what I can do to refine things. I have lots of referees; I just need to find the right exercises to limit the wrong muscles while building the right ones...

Lighter weights will work better, too.

Time to dig out the strength and anatomy books. The principles are good for building hard muscle; we mostly want to grow hips and butt, shape and and arms, and keep the legs shapely. Additional constraints are time, frequency, and equipment.

Minor challenge, right?

-Jean

[elainecd]

So, tonight's experiment showed me I've been pursuing my objectives the wrong way.
One day of heavy might be great, but I'm doing exercises that will build muscle too much.

I'll see what I can do to refine things. I have lots of referees; I just need to find the right exercises to limit the wrong muscles while building the right ones...

Lighter weights will work better, too.

Time to dig out the strength and anatomy books. The principles are good for building hard muscle; we mostly want to grow hips and butt, shape and and arms, and keep the legs shapely. Additional constraints are time, frequency, and equipment.

Minor challenge, right?

-Jean

I will be a guinea pig. OMG, I did just 10 squats and couldn't get very low. I started hands to sides (watched some videos) and swung them forward as as I squatted.

What should I do for a start? I'm 64, 6'3" 207~208 and anxious to work on my butt, hips and waist. I've been doing NBE with pueraria mirifica for over a year and that's coimg along nicely. Time to work on the rest.

Are these the right muscles groups to work, picture and text scroll down a little

https://informedquackery.wordpress.com/2...s-month-1/