[PattiJT]

Abi, I'm sorry to see that you feel you and I cannot have a productive discussion. I'm unsure how my unwillingness to change "sex" to "gender" can be interpreted as discarding anything you say. I can be a bit dense at times, though.

Since our moderator is intent on letting the kids play, let us play. I'd like to explore the difference, (as I see it) between whole, and damaged. (I will put religious names in parentheses with the understanding that some may not wish to see them, but references must be made in order to conduct the discussion). As you said, "Christ" healed. He "healed", he did not "make whole". the people he is said to have healed were damaged in one way or another, but they were still "whole" at the time of healing. Even Lazarus. Seems like splitting hairs, but it isn't, IMO. When a person is born with all the necessary parts, and of the correct number, then they should be considered "whole", should they not? When, through an injury, or an illness, their body becomes "damaged" then they require "healing". Yes, I agree, we should try to heal them. There is another side to that, as well. There are a few religious sects whose devoutness and beliefs require them to accept whatever may be visited upon them, and consider it to be "Gods'" will. No medical services allowed. Question being, are they right, or are we? And does it really matter? You can probably see where I'm going here. I would venture to guess that most, if not all, of us here are, by MY definition, whole people. But, are we "damaged"? Do we therefore require "healing". Assuming we have all our required parts, in the requisite numbers, whose determination is it that we are not in the condition that "God" precisely intended us to be in? "God" wouldn't do that? "He's" described as being vengeful, fierce, and could even be called murderous. Why couldn't he have a sense of humor, and give us something to deal with? After all, we got our sense of humor from somewhere. This was the reason I mentioned "devoutness". A truly devout "Christian" would have no choice other than accept and deal with a GD situation. When one mentions "I am a "Christian", I take that as meaning just that. Saying "I come from a "Christian" background, means that perhaps you are a bit more progressive, and able to deal with your perceived GD and not be tied to such a strict interpretation of faith. Incidentally, a person of "Bhuddism" would have a whole different outlook on being created with a built-in defect. Perfectly understandable to them. Has to do with reincarnaction and the purpose of the soul/spirit. The phrase "these are the times that test mens' souls" falls right in place with them.

So, when I ask, are you broken? Are you damaged? That's kind of where I'm coming from. And who made which decision? Us? Do we really have that right? Thus, why I said, some of us will maybe have to abandon a bit of our religion in order to assume the right to make those decisions that our religion supposedly presumes has been made for us at the time of creation.

I would, however, take "minor" issue with one thing you posted. You said that man has the "means, power, and knowledge", and should exercise it in "absolutely any circumstances. I imagine you spoke of that in a "healing" sense, but it was quite an open-ended statement. Maybe even a bit arrogant. Therefore, having the means and power to fornicate, be promiscous, maim, murder and so forth should be taken as authority to do so? Sorry, that was a ridiculous statement, in light of what I believe your real intentions were. BUT, man has had that means and power, and abused it before, resulting in a near wipe-out of the human species. Taken a bit further, does having the knowledge to create life, or develop artificial intelligence mean that we should do it under "absolutely any circumstances"? (And those are just a couple of the scary things we DO know about). Assuming that "God" is, above all, honest, and won't send us another flood, maybe he will exercise his "sense of humor" (hopefully with some great sadness) and let us just destroy ourselves. We definitely have the ability, the arrogance, and the lack of good moral judgement to do just that.

Hope I haven't confused you, or upset you. While we have come a long ways from the OP's original intent, I am still intrigued with where we have gone, and how we have gotten there. Fire away! Patti