31-10-2011, 08:43 PM
(This post was last modified: 31-10-2011, 08:45 PM by chrishoney.)
It would be nice if you could indulge in a little accuracy when you criticize me and put words in my mouth. Let's be very clear, shall we?
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Christin14
Its very possible your HA was caused by something else entirely- that's a no brainer. [quote]
Finally, some sense. This is the first post you admitted that the OP's HA's could possibly be caused by something else. We agree on that.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']But
headaches alone are a common side effect of estro-dom. period! You can skip a whole 4 days of your dose of herbs and you would still have it in your system until it has been converted and fully processed. I have also an experience with Fenugreek doing this to me and it was under a 1500mg dose. I would stop and when my symptoms did and then resume by slowly ramping up. The result was the immediate return of headaches and other symptoms such as bad cramping. [/quote]
True, HA's are a common side effect of estrogen dominance. However, I seriously doubt you a male taking a weak phytoestrogen can be estrogen dominant. And furthermore, your experience noted above, was NOT what the OP did. Therefore, the likelihood of estrogen dominance being the problem is quite small in this case.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
I highly advise you research on your own from here so that you will have more of an understanding when it comes to specific herbs and their common side effects because at the end of the day you are the one to go through it, no one else.[quote]
Thanks for the tip, I'm sure I wouldn't have thought of that on my own. However, I have done extensive research on the effects and side effects, as well as experimented with them on myself, of the major herbs we are talking about here.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
ChrisHoney,
I see you have taken it a bit too far on the offense scale. First, let's have you understand a few things: my intention was to help and give my honest opinion based on my first hand experience, and I have had many.
So I will not entertain the idea of further trying to explain what I have learned on the subject of short term cleansing. It would be like trying to convince one of my past doctors that TCM works![/quote]
Well that is too bad. This would be a perfect opportunity to educate those of us who doubt the veracity of your claims. How about just some basic science supporting the efficacy of liver cleanses, since I know there is nothing out there in the way of studies on them specifically. If you choose to be defensive and offended by my opinions, I respect your choice in that matter.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Secondly, I find a fallacy in some of your statements: here's why :you give "facts" from sites that often bash and dismiss all forms of ancient medicinal practices by calling them "quackery","Quack Medicine", "bunk" etc. These are the kind of sites that would also bash on the use of devices like Noogle Berry, Brava, the use of BO and Herbal NBE.
[quote]
Actually if you would deign to read those sites you slam, such as the Mayo Clinic, you might be surprised at how open minded they have become. I am educated in traditional western medicine, and understand all to well the close-minded, knee-jerk reactionary position of established, western medical thinking. I am not a physician, but I do have a doctorate and am well trained in making differential diagnoses of all the body systems, which I do on a daily basis. In my practice I use a form of manual therapy that IS considered quackery by some folks in the medical establishment. Why do I use it? Because I have felt the effects myself (my experience) and my patients get well faster than if I used the methods and techniques I was taught in school. I have spent years honing the art and craft of manual physical therapy, so I understand all too well how it feels to be bashed by traditional western medicine, when I daily see the benefits of this kind of therapy.
In my opinion, the theoretical reasoning behind why BO works is very sketchy. It may have an effect, but I highly doubt it reprograms the pituitary to direct the body to behave like a female. As for the others, there is actually good science to explain why they work, as there is for why PM works. If western medicine chooses to bury it's collective head in the sand and ignore research from other countries
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Thirdly, If you really look at what you and many of us here on this forum are doing, you would realize that we are using a form of ancient medicinal practice to a.) grow breasts, b.) change the shapes of our body, c.) balance our hormones!
[/quote]
The use of PM going back very far in history, has been well documented in the far east. What hasn't been documented until recently, is the highly estrogenic effects it has in women. Using that basic science as a rationale, it seems reasonable to extrapolate that it would have similar effects in males. This to me, is hardly quackery. It literally is an extension of the scientific method you seem so opposed to.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
On a fourth note, didn't think I had to go here but apparently I do: These individuals and groups that often write bashing these practices support the FDA in removal of all herbals and natural supplements off the shelves of our lovely health food stores in the U.S. In fact, they want to make it global. Don't think this is going on? Research it. They have been trying to pass these types of bills for years! In order to receive any form of natural medicine(herbs and the like) You must obtain a prescription. It's the law in some countries in Europe and in some parts of Canada from what I have read.
[quote]
Again, thanks for the tip, but I already was aware of this, and have written my congressman several months ago. Unfortunately you seem prone to exaggeration as it apparently is NOT the law in Canada.
(continued)
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Christin14
Its very possible your HA was caused by something else entirely- that's a no brainer. [quote]
Finally, some sense. This is the first post you admitted that the OP's HA's could possibly be caused by something else. We agree on that.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']But
headaches alone are a common side effect of estro-dom. period! You can skip a whole 4 days of your dose of herbs and you would still have it in your system until it has been converted and fully processed. I have also an experience with Fenugreek doing this to me and it was under a 1500mg dose. I would stop and when my symptoms did and then resume by slowly ramping up. The result was the immediate return of headaches and other symptoms such as bad cramping. [/quote]
True, HA's are a common side effect of estrogen dominance. However, I seriously doubt you a male taking a weak phytoestrogen can be estrogen dominant. And furthermore, your experience noted above, was NOT what the OP did. Therefore, the likelihood of estrogen dominance being the problem is quite small in this case.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
I highly advise you research on your own from here so that you will have more of an understanding when it comes to specific herbs and their common side effects because at the end of the day you are the one to go through it, no one else.[quote]
Thanks for the tip, I'm sure I wouldn't have thought of that on my own. However, I have done extensive research on the effects and side effects, as well as experimented with them on myself, of the major herbs we are talking about here.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
ChrisHoney,
I see you have taken it a bit too far on the offense scale. First, let's have you understand a few things: my intention was to help and give my honest opinion based on my first hand experience, and I have had many.
So I will not entertain the idea of further trying to explain what I have learned on the subject of short term cleansing. It would be like trying to convince one of my past doctors that TCM works![/quote]
Well that is too bad. This would be a perfect opportunity to educate those of us who doubt the veracity of your claims. How about just some basic science supporting the efficacy of liver cleanses, since I know there is nothing out there in the way of studies on them specifically. If you choose to be defensive and offended by my opinions, I respect your choice in that matter.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Secondly, I find a fallacy in some of your statements: here's why :you give "facts" from sites that often bash and dismiss all forms of ancient medicinal practices by calling them "quackery","Quack Medicine", "bunk" etc. These are the kind of sites that would also bash on the use of devices like Noogle Berry, Brava, the use of BO and Herbal NBE.
[quote]
Actually if you would deign to read those sites you slam, such as the Mayo Clinic, you might be surprised at how open minded they have become. I am educated in traditional western medicine, and understand all to well the close-minded, knee-jerk reactionary position of established, western medical thinking. I am not a physician, but I do have a doctorate and am well trained in making differential diagnoses of all the body systems, which I do on a daily basis. In my practice I use a form of manual therapy that IS considered quackery by some folks in the medical establishment. Why do I use it? Because I have felt the effects myself (my experience) and my patients get well faster than if I used the methods and techniques I was taught in school. I have spent years honing the art and craft of manual physical therapy, so I understand all too well how it feels to be bashed by traditional western medicine, when I daily see the benefits of this kind of therapy.
In my opinion, the theoretical reasoning behind why BO works is very sketchy. It may have an effect, but I highly doubt it reprograms the pituitary to direct the body to behave like a female. As for the others, there is actually good science to explain why they work, as there is for why PM works. If western medicine chooses to bury it's collective head in the sand and ignore research from other countries
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
Thirdly, If you really look at what you and many of us here on this forum are doing, you would realize that we are using a form of ancient medicinal practice to a.) grow breasts, b.) change the shapes of our body, c.) balance our hormones!
[/quote]
The use of PM going back very far in history, has been well documented in the far east. What hasn't been documented until recently, is the highly estrogenic effects it has in women. Using that basic science as a rationale, it seems reasonable to extrapolate that it would have similar effects in males. This to me, is hardly quackery. It literally is an extension of the scientific method you seem so opposed to.
[quote='tibetan113' pid='38840' dateline='1319479707']
On a fourth note, didn't think I had to go here but apparently I do: These individuals and groups that often write bashing these practices support the FDA in removal of all herbals and natural supplements off the shelves of our lovely health food stores in the U.S. In fact, they want to make it global. Don't think this is going on? Research it. They have been trying to pass these types of bills for years! In order to receive any form of natural medicine(herbs and the like) You must obtain a prescription. It's the law in some countries in Europe and in some parts of Canada from what I have read.
[quote]
Again, thanks for the tip, but I already was aware of this, and have written my congressman several months ago. Unfortunately you seem prone to exaggeration as it apparently is NOT the law in Canada.
(continued)