[prostatenipple]

i think this thread is a horrible real-world example of why we would need actual safe spaces. and this is not a safe space at all.


instead of acknowledging the problem, there's been all kinds of transphobic and interphobic slander being thrown around, citing science and biology etc. to try to revive eugenics and construct a scientific godhead who decides who is what. that is incredibly hurtful and those messages by shirazmn (and flamesabers agreeing to every such post) alone are enough for me to not feel welcome on this forum at all.

there's a well written article about the issue, this gets immediately shot down because of the author is not in medical field, HRT, surgeries etc. transmedicalism like this is deeply offensive and exclusionary.

and again the term "genetic males" is dug up. nobody has explained what that means? you can't see a person's sex by looking at their genes. you can't see it in any one measurement. it's a spectrum. yet you keep on bringing it up.

and now there's a pile of messages all sparked from a single bad incident that's btw only known to manue and heaven's night, so the others can do nothing but take your words for it. it might be bad, but i'm not gonna let you pretend like all the other dehumanising shit hasn't gone down even in this thread. like this is so ridiculously bad, everyone's pointing fingers now that there's a discord incident to be dug up, but everything prior to that is conveniently ignored.

and how should anyone build bridges if you're waiting on the other side with a baseball bat, ready to swing again in a minute? respect is earned, not given.

"Newcomers will read that and assume that people in this forum are genetic males, whether you like the definition or not"
this really tells me everything. this forum is for those who have the right genes, the right identity, whether that tells anything about the person or not is not up for debate, and the following "i have nothing against.." is just wind after the initial idea. you absolutely do have against. you're just deferring your hateful ideas to the hypothetical "newcomer" who's coming here all loaded with hatred towards anyone not resembling him, and you're all for pandering to that kind of twisted narrative.

@nephele On one thing I agree with HR: these issues have been discussed over and over before. And I admit that I am usually the one who points out when people get stuck on language, attacking posters instead of guiding them to understanding the issues. It's not a case of HT VS Manue here. We have seen this thing before, we are seeing it in other threads at this very time, and I've been around long enough to see it on Discord. While HT is not the only one doing that, she definitely is one of the people who snaps most easily and, as you can tell, she doesn't hold back on insulting, belittling, and proposing to ban people left and right. I raised a point on language and so far I've been branded a bigot and a fucktard (and I am sure I missed some of the name calling). I may have said things not everyone agrees on, which makes sense because we are on an adult-only forum where I believe people shouild be able to express themselves respectfully without being attacked. If what I am saying offends you I am sorry but I won't change my mind until scientific evidence comes up and proves me wrong. I've changed my mind in the past on many issues, but never baselessly.

And, yes, science. Science is that repeatable thing that allows a chemical analyst to look at molecules and understand what will bind with your estrogen receptors. It's that thing that doctors study to have knowledge that applies to most patients so they can help them. Science is not a very eloquent essay written by a philosopher: it's method, repeatability, standardisation. It's the stuff that every day allows countless transgender people to aligh their body with their mind without dying in the process. 
Science has terminology that helps people understanding what happens to whom. In science there is a difference between the definitions used for humans about sex and gender. DNA matters because it gives a person the organs to produce a specific set of hormones. I don't care what people have in their panties: I care about what hormones people produce when we are talking about what to suppress, how much of the other hormones to take etc... This forum is not for those with the "right genes" only, but its subtitle kind of implies that people here started with an XY genetic markup. That's what "genetic males" mean, not necessarily that they have a penis, vagina, both etc... As I said before, it's a bit rich to be here and get angry if anyone ever asks you if you are, genetically, male. 

I don't deflect anything on a "hypotetical newcomer", I am very aware of the fact that many people have never spoken with a transgender person before and they have zero idea of how to relate to them. If the first thing that happens to these people is to be insulted, it will probably be the last time they speak to anyone while searching for themselves. I've been there myself: 15 years ago I met a transgender person for the first time and, not knowing what I was doing and where boundaries were, I was also coming from a different culture and language, I asked if she had the operation. Instead of snapping at me, she explained boundaries and language. I learned, I am now a better person, and that opened up in my brain the understanding of the difference between a woman and someone with a specific set of genitals. Had I found someone like HT that day, my path to understanding the shades of sex and genders would have been very different, it could even have stopped altogether. We just can't assume that people know how to talk about the topics we discussed, or that they know the boundaries.
Is this attitude bigoted? Seriously?

And when I write "I have nothing against", I mean that I have nothing against. I didn't use a "but" in that sentence. I stated my feeling and my thoughts about having people of all sexes and genders in this forum. No "buts". 

One thing I am tired of, though, is to see forum users insulting others directly. While "bigoted" may not sound like much, "fucktards" seem a bit more direct. Also "your nasty as fuck narcsissit tgendencies" (sic.) seems a bit like a direct attack. Admins should probably do something but... looks like it's the actual admin that is behaving like that. Is this really acceptable? Isn't that the kind of language that should be avoided here instead of banning language about genetics, biology and hormones? What of the two languages makes BN a less friendly and less welcoming place? And, mind, this is not a direct attack on HT, who is "always done with this thread" or "done with BreastNexum", then invariably spits some more bile against all others in her private thread under "personal programs" before she returns to the original thread to vomit some more. This is really a conversation I want to have about language.

I have been warned, in a private message, about how you behave, Shirazmn. Normally I would not disclose anything in a PM into the open, given that it's impolite and improper, but given the context I think it might be needed to get things "out in the open". If I had just send you a PM about it, all that would happen is that you would fume with anger, and no one else would be the wiser.

I have read your post above a couple of times, and I cannot see anything that is bad besides the part at the start where you own up to "attacking posters instead of guiding them to understanding the issues".

In fact, I think your post is well written and your thoughts on the matter are actually very reasonable.

I am particularly distressed about your final paragraph - not because you wrote it, but because I can see that it is truthful based on what I've also seen over many months. Anyone that is familiar with Dr Ramani's work would find themselves nodding while looking at the interactions.

Language has meaning, and that has power. I'd be interested if you open a new thread on that - it would be a good read.

That's all I want to say for now. I just wish this forum didn't have these issues - we just want breasts and to be accepted who we are and who we are looking to become. I had written something to that effect (just with more words) to someone else in a PM - and I really do mean it. All this stuff distracts from what we are here for, and we just have to essentially meta-moderate things ourselves. I'm going to restrain myself from further action like that - I would only jump in to defend other users I think.