[Lotus]

Lotus -

Your suggestions on anti-androgen combinations is very interesting. I am thinking of upping my game on this front.

I have looked unsuccessfully for recommendations for dosage levels for black cohosh and red clover.

For black cohosh, the labels often say something like "2.5% Triterpene Glycosides," but provide little additional information. Also, there has been a lot of commentary about potential liver damage from black cohosh, but I am not sure it is well documented.

Is 1,500 mg per day of red clover about right?

spanky

Hi spanky,

There's 2000 mg of red clover (2 ml/ 56 drops) in a extract form. And @ 400 mg in capsule form are taken (2) capsules 3x a day, or 2400 mg a day. Imo, 2000 mg is about right. It should be standardized for potency, same with black cohosh, I do remember the BC concerns and claims, the outcomes of those studies left more questions than answers. One (recent) study found that BC had no estrogenic properties. In fact they point out what makes BC effective with pre/post-menopause is that BC actually influences GABA A, and thru-opiate receptors. But, my own personal opinion is that 2 capsules of BC @ 45 mg each is what I would do. But I also believe BC has some link to GABA A and 5 alpha reductase, I'll have to post more on GABA, would you believe it has 11 subunits?, fascinating stuff.


Extracts of black cohosh are standardized to 26-deoxyactein content (erroneously reported in the scientific literature as 27-deoxyactein [2]), a member of a group of chemicals known as saponins. Commercially available preparations of black cohosh usually contain 1 mg of total triterpene saponins (expressed as 26-deoxyactein) in each 20-mg dose of extract. But black cohosh at 2.5% Triterpene Glycosides sounds pretty much standard.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/BlackCohosh-HealthProfessional/

Black cohosh (Actaea racemosa, Cimicifuga racemosa) behaves as a mixed competitive ligand and partial agonist at the human mu opiate receptor

Abstract

Black cohosh is a commonly used botanical dietary supplement for the treatment of climacteric complaints. Since the opiate system in the brain is intimately associated with mood, temperature and sex hormonal levels, we investigated the activity of black cohosh extracts at the human μ opiate receptor (hMOR) expressed in Chinese hamster ovary cells. The 100% methanol-, 75% ethanol- and 40% 2-propanol- extracts of black cohosh effectively displaced the specific binding of [3H]DAMGO to hMOR. Further studies of the clinically used ethanol extract indicated that black cohosh acted as a mixed competitive ligand, displacing 77 ± 4% [3H]DAMGO to hMOR (Ki = 62.9 μg/ml). Using the [35S]GTPγS assay, the action of black cohosh was found to be consistent with an agonist, with an EC50 of 68.8 ± 7.7 μg/ml. These results demonstrate for the first time that black cohosh contains active principle(s) that activate hMOR, supporting its beneficial role in alleviating menopausal symptoms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2547488/pdf/nihms61715.pdf

What interests me is androgen production rates, like how much DHT is produced, or where it's produced from (e.g. brain androgen, adrenal androgen, peripheral tissues, testes, ovaries, blood).

"When DHT formation is inhibited, the aromatization pathway of T to estradiol will prevail and induce a pronounced down-regulation of AR mRNA levels."

Steroid synthesis in intratumoral stromal and carcinoma cells and the potential sites at which flavones and isoflavones may inhibit the production of biologically active oestrogens. Androgens taken up by carcinoma cells include androstenedione and DHEA, the latter of which is converted to androstenedione by 3β-HSD1. Androstenedione is converted to oestrone by aromatase. Oestrone sulphate is converted to oestradiol by ETS and 17β-HSD.ETS, oestrogen sulfatase; EST, oestrogen sulfotransferase/SULT1E1; HSD, hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase.

Basically, it's stating flavones are anti-aromatase, while red clover is the on switch between 17 beta HSD and ER-a (estrogen receptor alpha, the growth receptor).

Black Cohosh-The weak estrogenlike effects of black cohosh suppressed increased luteinizing hormone secretion in menopausal women

In men, LH is also produced in the pituitary gland. LH binds to receptors in certain cells in the testes called Leydig cells. This leads to the release of testosterone, a hormone that is necessary for producing sperm cells. So I would think the BC is shutting the testes down by suppressing LH.