[Sandy77]

Hi HN, thanks for laying this out. I’m curious because the results you describe sound almost “too good,” and I’m trying to understand what you’re basing it on. What made you confident BO was the driver (vs background HRT shifts, time, body changes, etc.)?

If you happen to have any solid resources you trust (even just a couple links you found convincing, or a mechanism explanation you think holds up), I’d love to read them. Also, did you track anything like labs or just changes over time?

Hi Manue. 

Obviously the fantastic results me and few others have got is not only done by bovine ovary, but it is a MAJOR factor. I have some study articles gathered up about this, there's not much unfortunately and then there's a lot of anecdotes. I'm planning on trying to gather it all toghether and post it as a coherent text as this is pondered upon so much.

Here on BN Lotus posted something about BO when she looked into it more not ages ago, its in the Projext-X thread somewhere. And Tanyasquirrel posted a bunch of interesting ideas about it in her Acorns thread. I think there were some links and interesting ideas about what makes it work. I have these posts saved in a huge textfile of assorted notes I've been saving over the years. Then I should ask Melissa if she could still find the mouse study that was about glandular therapy on mice and the findings were extremely interesting, it had something which could explain the "point of no return" that many people have talked about, she unfortunately never showed me that study or if she did I never saved it. I have to assk as this has been bugging me for several years now.

Most of why I swear to the name of glandulars is my own experience, the correlation of timing with changing doses etc. to my breast development and body changes which is undeniable. I haven't done labs for ages now and I should, then again all I've changed since then is tweaking the NBE program and switching from Cypro to Bica and bit higher dose of EV. The really interesting wild card on hormone levels is combination of Bica and oral DHEA as that's something that would absolutely require blood check to see the difference.

The reasons why BO works I speculate to be the following:

1. Contains bioidentical estrogens, progesterone and likely more, in differeing amounts depending on what poinf ot the hormone cycle the cows were slaughtered, this we can't of course know and likely each capsule has a mix of who knows how many cows, we don't know the specifics of the process that results into the Swanson Ovarian Glandular product. Other than its freeze dried cow ovaries ground to powder.

2. Something in it works as a suspected massive aromatase booster, this has been talked about a lot but I'm yet to see evidence for the exact mechanism of this.

3. It appears to work better when combined with Pituitary glandular taken at approximately 10-20% of the BO dosage. This I picked from the attached Glandular therapy program idea and the breast growth capsule patent text, since I upped my Pit dosage, results have been amazingly good. It works on its own, but this combo seems better.

4. This is pure specuation, but its repeated by many people who have tried it, that something in it works as a hormone balancer in a way that conventional HRT alone can't do. Meaning that people have been reporting improved mood and energy levels when starting to take it and noticing obvious difference when stopping. And the positive mental effect precedes body changes and continues as long as the BO is continued. This was the first thing I paid attention to when I first started. Melissa noted a similar change, so did Gracefulcurves here on BN and I've read of few others. So bovine ovaries might contain a combination of hormones which is more than just estrogens and P4 and thus it works as balancer of sorts. 

5. Body temperature and genetics. This has been speculated a lot about for many years and some people have been convinced that raising their body temperature just a bit made BO work far better. This is why people keep mentioning adding kelp or multivitiamin containing iodine to their NBE program. And then lastly there's the genetic factor. We know how BO works to some poeple like its hormonal rocket fuel, to many it does very little and to some absolutely nothing at all. Its been speculated that there likely is a genetic factor which makes some people benefit more than others. I think its more than likely as similar differences exist with just conventional HRT, but what specific genetic traits might be in play is mystery I would love to se answered.

I'll attach few articles to read, there really isn't much to go on, but its a start.

Thank you for the attachments. The last one that lays out everything one needs to know about BO is very informative. I strongly agree with the warnings laid out in chapters two and eight about the permanent effects of taking BO. I disagree about “permanently becoming a woman” as a man can never be a woman. I understand the deeper context, but someone might not. 

Anyway the warnings are very real. The method works well and can cloud one’s decision making, so it’s IMPERATIVE to look at the good, and bad BEFORE taking your first dose as you’ll hit a point of no return in your mind and in your body.

[Heaven's Night]

Thank you for the attachments. The last one that lays out everything one needs to know about BO is very informative. I strongly agree with the warnings laid out in chapters two and eight about the permanent effects of taking BO. I disagree about “permanently becoming a woman” as a man can never be a woman. I understand the deeper context, but someone might not. 

Anyway the warnings are very real. The method works well and can cloud one’s decision making, so it’s IMPERATIVE to look at the good, and bad BEFORE taking your first dose as you’ll hit a point of no return in your mind and in your body.

Excuse me, but what in the transphobia is that bullshit? Don't you understand that a full medical transition is transitioning of SEX CHARACTERISTICS? Also a trans woman is a type of a woman, not a man, never was a man and never will be a man. Mind you that the depth of the changes in physically measurable, sex characteristics with years of HRT and surgery is literally about changing the persons sex, by all means that are currently available. And what about the measured and known brain differences and so on.

And don't you dare to dismis intersex conditions either, I have one of those, several of my friends are intersex women who have transitioned/fixed what nature fucked up. Don't you fucking dare to imply that we're not women. 

You definitely do not understand the context if you claim that a medical, physical, transition does not change sex characteristics. Also have some fucking respect! Trans people are exactly who they are and what they're becoming and many do a fucking literal sex change. Chromos don't mean shit if you understand how they work and how there's deviations of the norms, that's a totally moot way of trying to discredit us.

I was never a man to begin with. I lived that social role as it was forced upon me, I'm fixg my sex characteristics to match who I am. That's what trans people do. I'm also intersex, so I'm not a man, never was and never will be. What do you think it is then when a person has outer gentilia looking male like, but also has female internals huh?



Physical, medical sex transition is a fact, not an opinion. Don't you dare to be transphobic for a second here! Nor in denial of medical science of how sex characteristics work. Its not just ones and zeros. 

[Manue]

I was never a man to begin with. I lived that social role as it was forced upon me, I'm fixg my sex characteristics to match who I am. That's what trans people do. I'm also intersex, so I'm not a man, never was and never will be. What do you think it is then when a person has outer gentilia looking male like, but also has female internals huh?



Physical, medical sex transition is a fact, not an opinion. Don't you dare to be transphobic for a second here! Nor in denial of medical science of how sex characteristics work. Its not just ones and zeros. 

HN, we're not here to debate anyone’s identity. Sandy’s wording derailed the thread and your response escalated it further. Can we keep this focused on NBE and harm reduction?

BN’s purpose is discussion of breast development for people who are navigating male-typical physiology and endocrine profiles, whether they’re on HRT or not. That means advice needs to stay precise and avoid absolute claims like “plenty of evidence” without sources, or “point of no return” as a general rule.

Also, for discussions centered on female-typical physiology rather than male-typical baselines, there are dedicated spaces like BreastNexus.

[Heaven's Night]

Nexus didn't welcome me either and its more half dead than this forum is.

Good point about advice over here. I think everybody understands the concept of the forum quite well. But a lot of them don't understand the hows and whys. I'm trying my best with the advice and telling exactly how and why stuff works or it doesn't. But I'm not Lotus. I'm not fluent in science speak and my memory is Swiss cheese. That's why I keep saving articles and posts so I can quote all the interesting stuff instead relying on my crappy memory.

But when someone pulls absolute lies and transphobic bs out of their ass, I will not let it go. Not for a second. Zero tolerance for that stuff, it has no place here. But then, maybe I don't have a place here either, this "argument" has been brought up before that I should just leave for Nexus as I'm not one of the dudes or those with typical XY dude anatomy. I've stayed, because every time I thought about leaving there's bunch of people who beg me to stay. Without them I would have been gone already as there's idiotic posters showing up from time to time and the regulars I would love to discuss with aren't.

I need to go on with my day, I'm busy af and have given way too much energy to posting here already.

[DruLactin]

Honestly, this should be the place for post menopausal women's NBE as well. Big difference between the two is whether you have ovaries to deal with.

And unfortunately, if your ovaries don't work, it's basically impossible to get them to work. If you've got any.

I hope one day we can change absolutely everything about it. erasure in the most ethical and beneficial way.

Back on topic, As for you, HN, I'm sure BO helped you, but with everything you take, can we really know how and why? You take Anti-Androgens, specifically Bica, so you can basically take as much T as you want and it will turn into estrogen so long as your aromatization is in working order. So, maybe BO just helps your aromatase work better, or maybe its increasing LH and making more free T that your already working aromatase is converting into E. Maybe It's aiding the function of your dormant ovaries and just making E that way.

BO is a supplement with a multitude (emphasis on 'tit') of conofounding variables, and you, it's biggest beneficiary, have even more confounding variable than a cis woman. Which is impressive considering imo cis women have more confounding variables than trans women. Except you. 2-fat-transfer-surgeries, potentially-intersex, breast-growth-and-growth-hormone-positive-genetics, taking-Bica you. A black box within a black box.

If we could split your timeline and test every configuration of your general program and test it against the basics, that would be really cool. Because otherwise, besides the extremely valuable research you do collating other info and continuing the good work of Lotus, your specific transition really doesn't tell us much conclusively as a case study. Not that you should change it, just be grateful.

-Aria

[Heaven's Night]

I think BN should be just over all inclusive as the ideas being discussed here can benefit anyone who's dealing with hormonal or titty issues. And true that about ovaries or lacking them, HRT is the solution to that. 

I have read that gene hacking by CRISPR(I hope I remember this correctly?) is showing some really promising progress, that testies could be tiurned into ovaries with tweaking certain genes. That would be the holy grail for trans women at least. And then there's research done on lab grown body parts using patients own DNA. Lot of extremely cool Star Trek like almost magical stuff which might be just around the corner. Maybe not in our time but in not so distant future.

Yes you're correct, this is the big question mark about BO which there's no clear answer to. What I know for certain however, is the way my body has reacted when I've changed dosages and combinations and the quick results soon after. This has repeated several times so obviously it seems logical to conclude that BO + other glandulars have done magic on me. About the crazy good aromatase thing, that could be it. I can't know for sure. I wo much miss Mel87, she could have a lot to say about this as her experience so much mirrors mine and she's better at digging into details and finding information. 

And also correct about how I'm not a good example on how this stuff works because lot of NBE is like rocket fuel on my body and the part that genetics play isn't insignificant. 

It would be a amazing to arrange an actual study on all this stuff, but who could make it happen and how? It would take quite a lot of people and lot of time to do it. Lack of studies sucks big time as there's things about conventional HRT which is inconclusive and NBE is almost completely a grey area on which the most information there is, is anecdotal or something that kinda points to how it works but its not actual reasearch on our subject here. (Like mouse studies on DHEA for example.)

[Curvyguy]

I like to think in the future that transwomen could also have uteruses green from there own dna. That would be cool as plenty would love to experience pregnancy. The whole your not a real woman as you don't have a womb debate would stop because you could day well actually....

They have just as much right to that as transmen do getting pregnant themselves if they want. Which more and more do. As my guy says a womb is a terrible thing to waste lol!