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What an amazing question ZOE, I'll give my opinion but I'd like to defer at first if you don't mind.
Anybody care to answer?
Please see the recently created threads regarding Saw Palmetto
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=17712
http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=17713
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Can't say how much I value the information. Anxiously waiting.
I wish I had more to contribute at this point, would like to reciprocate.
Hopefully I will be better able in the future. Thanks!
Zoe
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Well, my answer, oh great one, may be found in my program page comments today.
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I apologize for the sad illustration, but.....?
Btw, ZOE, check your PM
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What is: Aromatase and Aromatase Inhibitors
Aromatase and Aromatase Inhibitors Aromatase is an enzyme found in the liver, responsible for the conversion of the androgens androstenedione and testosterone into the estrogens estrone and estradiol. Inhibiting aromatase can cause the body to produce less estrogen and maintain a higher testosterone state. The main side effect in men from too much estrogen is gynecomastia . In order to prevent gynecomastia, you hear bodybuilders talking about using anti-aromatase supplements to suppress aromatase and therefore prevent more estrogen from being produced.
Other factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, being overweight, insulin production and levels, gonadotropins, and alcohol consumption. Aromatase activity can be decreased by prolactin, anti-müllerian hormone, and smoking (but don't take that to mean you're supposed to start smoking!).
http://prohormonedb.com/content.asp?t=What+is%3A+Aromatase+and+Aromatase+Inhibitors&c=6
The plant steroids in saw palmetto also act on progesterone receptors, an action that causes a reduction in estrogen levels.
Read more:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/543983-saw-palmetto-
estrogen/#ixzz2rqDCkJyv
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ZOE Wrote:Mistress~Lotus Wrote:ZOE Wrote:Hi M. Lotus.
I wanted to share this with you in a private message as I am not entirely sure of it's accuracy or completeness and I don't want to cause confusion on your thread. I am overwhelmed by the research you have done and your ability to educate and communicate and do not want to lead your thread in a direction that might be distracting. So, have a look and if you believe a portion of this may be helpful, then post as you see fit.
This is a portion of a post from The Transgender Boards. Of course the poster was immediately chastised by others in the community (pharmas) and no discussion ensued. I found it interesting and germane to your thread. It was posted in March, 2013.
As follows:
As I understand it- Aromatase is the ultimate deciding enzyme in sexual dimorphism. It converts Testosterone into Estrogen. Most studies on Aromatose are in the development of inhibitors to help reduce the proliferation of breast cancer. The quantity of aromatase pretty much determines what your balance of estrogen and testosterone is. Unfortunately, the literature on aromatase promotion is awful. It appears that Glycyrrhizin is the most effective aromatase promoter found in nature (licorice), but it's also dangerous. White Peony is the only other thing that I've been able to find (used to increase levels of aromatase in rats to test aromatase inhibitors). Aromatase promotion, fortunately, does not compete with anti-androgens or estrogens (though many plants contain all three), which makes it a desirable mechanism to exploit. I'm looking into acquiring Peony root to produce a sublingual tincture (coincidentally, alcohol is an aromatase promoter) that, hopefully, will help with that.
Most phytoestrogens compete with your naturally produced estradiol in binding to your limited estrogen receptors. In this sense, it's all about quality over quantity-- no matter how much soy or flax you eat, nothing will happen because isoflavones and lignans will only block your own estradiol. The only thing with literature to the contrary is Pueraria Mirifica, which, while not as potent as synthetics, actually appears to provide some net-gain of femininity.
The only other thing to look at is antiandrogens- most of these herbs have confounding effects, apparently. They contain a combination of phytoestrogens and antiandrogens, which in effect will typically do very little. In the case of Soy dominant cultures, however, there is a noticeable androgyny between men and women- of course, we're not approaching this from a pre-natal timescale, so Soy is worthless. Pygeum africanum and Spearmint look to be the best options. Other things that seem to help are DIM-containing vegetables, but most come with competitive estrogenic compounds that nullify the bonus- so I don't know of a good DIM-source or if DIM is a good idea... it can be found isolated though, which may make it viable.
In my minuscule amount of research and understanding of the goings-on- stuff like Black Cohosh and Saw Palmetto aren't likely to be effective at achieving any real results. They are used because they don't cause gender issues.
So...that's it.
Best wishes,
Zoe
I'll ask your permission to post the above even though you stated to do so!
Of course.
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Brilliant ZOE, I applaud you, only a few actually have ventured to add licorice, and with moderation I might add. Peony root is a strong contender for what it does. I can relate to the OP, I've received similar when I suggested using other than the staples of what has been used in the past. I've often thought and have suggested that Body Builders have long since figured out about the metabolism of enzymes. And not just the use/abuse of steroids I might add.
I'm not the first to suggest the principles, it's slow going, but if we ever want to get out of a B-cup you have to think outside of the box. That's not to suggest that others haven't, but there's not many that has achieved the kind of growth that most come here seeking. I'm also not suggesting to be reckless, I've not suggested the use of super dosing. Just for more education using the right techniques!
Thank you for sharing!
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Zoe, That was a great a article. Thanks for sharing, and I appreciate your asking Mistress to screen it first, since there is truly so much information and misinformation that for those with brains like mine, it is overwhelming.
Thanks for reviewing and sharing with the group, Mistress! I actually got most of it!
For me, SP is going and WP and Spearmint coming!
LL
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30-01-2014, 04:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 30-01-2014, 04:43 PM by
GoneGirl.)
This subject is very interesting, but I'm confused.
Aromatase is an enzyme that is needed to convert testosterone to estrogen in males. Which T is converted to which E? Is it free T that is converted to estradiol, or DHT?
To what extend are either Spearmint (which is anti-free T) or Pygeum (which is anti-DHT) going to complete with WP (a pro-aromatase herb whose purpose is to convert T to E)?
Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?
I hope some one can set me straight on this because I'm planning to make a change in my program next week (currently PM + Spearmint) by adding Pygeum (an anti-5 alpha reductase).
And, Lisa Lou, if you read this...you wrote that you're planning to replace SP with Spearmint+WP, right? What is your reasoning behind choosing WP over, say, Pygeum?
Clara Kay
