Hi everyone, I wanted to introduce myself and the program I've settled on and get the community's feedback.
I came to NBE in the last week or so when I noticed there were some people following the natural route on reddit in the trans timelines. Someone suggested that an NBE poster should be posting on Breast Nexum rather than there because I guess there's some rule you have to be on HRT to post progress pics. It's loosely enforced apparently.
Anyway, I immediately hopped over to this site and have spent many hours reading. Honestly, I'm in my 50s and had never heard of NBE before.
I'm not transgender. I'm just gay with a boob fetish if that makes sense. I love nipples and am attracted to non-binary, no op transfemmes (and other types as well). My own nipples are also a major erogenous zone. I've never considered getting on HRT but I have used silicone cups to enlarge my nipples and boobs generally. So, I already have boobs, sort of.
I really would like to have boobs that are less moobish and more actual breast tissue. I'd like an A cup that's small enough to be concealed under a t shirt but which have some weight that I can feel moving as I go about my day. So to that end, I started the following 3 days ago.
FG 500mg 3 times a day and increasing over the next week or so until I'm at a max 3000mg a day
For now, LC and SP on alternating days at 450 mg for the former and 900mg for the latter
WP 500mg twice a day when it arrives from Amazon, replacing LC and SP
FG tea every evening for 15 days (until I run out)
I plan to do this routine for 60 days followed by PM and RR for another 30 days.
PM Ainterol 500mg twice a day slowly increasing until I reach 2000mg a day
RR 500mg twice a day
PM Ainterol topical cream twice a day, possibly continuing longer than 30 days until it runs out
Then, I plan to reassess and possibly take a break. I'm hoping to bud during this period and get through it entirely. I know some have budded and freaked and stopped but returned. I'd like to just finish the process. If it begins to happen towards the end, then I might continue a little longer before taking a break. If it doesn't happen at all, I'll take the break and try again after some major work obligations are done, probably towards the end of the year.
I feel pretty confident about what I'm doing. I don't think I'll suddenly lose my nerve. My motives are to enhance my sex life and fulfill a fantasy I've had since childhood of having boobs. How I ended up gay and not straight with this orientation towards a distinctly female body part, I don't know.
It wasn't until the last 10 years that a lot of younger gay men have started to identify in almost as many ways as there are young people. All variations in orientation and now, fairly easy access to gender affirming care has created space for an old guy like me to discover a brand new sex life and way of experiencing my body.
My questions for the group:
Do you think this routine is enough to reach the budding stage over this timeline of 90 days? How long does it usually take?
What cup size should I aim for to be able to conceal my breasts with just a little extra padding and yet feel them moving?
Thanks so much for existing and providing a place to pursue this interest.
-insfca
Here's a couple pics of my starting point.
My measurements are: 94cm/37 in. overbust / 91.5cm/36 in. underbust, 3.2cm left arreola / 3.0cm right arreola.
Hello insfca,
Welcome to BN!
In regards to your questions, I feel like self-experimentation is pretty much a given when it comes to NBE. I started off with NBE with very different goals than yours (wanting to get full breast development, suppress my masculine libido, etc.) and now 10+ years later I'm on HRT as a part of my MtF transition.
When I did start on NBE herbs:
*I ramped up my PM Ainterol to 3,000mg per day (at a later period, I would sometimes take 4,000mg per day, 3x a week)
*I never used PM Ainterol cream much, so I can't vouch for its effectiveness
*I never used RR. For an anti-androgen, I sometimes used spearmint (ranging from 400mg-800mg). I found spearmint to be very useful for suppressing my masculine libido.
For the duration of budding, I think 6 months would be a more practical timeframe. You can't speed up budding by taking more herbs (might have the opposite effect in fact!)
With the ideal cup size for hiding but also feeling your breasts, I think is a bit of a tricky question to answer. If you want to have a "flat as a board" chest, that might be problematic with any noticeable breast growth. However, it's not unusual for cis males to get some breast development (from diet, genetics, medication, etc.) even if they're not purposely trying to enlarge their breasts. Unless you're intentionally trying to show off your breasts, people might not pay much notice to your chest. The one exception to this is if you are going topless in public.
How do you feel about getting to the point where wearing a bra is necessary for your personal comfort/support?
[unnecessary quoting removed]
Thank you for your comments, Alice. Yes, I would wear a bra if I needed to. I appreciate your correcting my expectations with regard to the budding process. I've been involved in foreskin restoration for a very long time. It also is a years long process that requires patience and diligence. So I'm prepared for it, I think.
Hi everyone,
I’m posting a 4 week update today. I had planned on a 60 day program of fenugreek (FG) and then a 30 day program of pueraria mirifica (PM). But I’ve decided to do 4 weeks on FG followed by 4 weeks on PM and then maybe another 4 weeks on FG. And then we’ll see.
Whatever I’m feeling physically may be my body's temporary reaction to exposure to the phytoestrogens in the FG. However, my chest/breasts definitely feel fuller, heavier, and my nipples are sore, too, but in an oddly pleasurable way. However, I’m not so sure my chest/breast look any different. You be the judge from the photos.
I started out using licorice (LC), saw palmetto (SP), and red reishi (RR) as my anti-androgens (AA) because they were all readily available locally. When the white peony (WP) arrived, I used that and LC.
But now I’ve stopped using AAs altogether. They were killing my dick. Morning erections just didn't happen after the first week. I could still get a weak erection while masturbating and my libido was high. In fact, higher than usual. But what good is a strong libido if I can’t get hard. And it just looked smaller.
In fact, I was so spooked by the loss of erections that I took a break for 6 days. I started up again on the 17th day. However, on the 24th day, I decided to stop the AAs altogether and go with just FG at higher doses because I couldn’t get hard again. I added fennel as well since I’d read that it works well with FG.
I will be using a low to moderate dose of Ainterol PM and their topical PM application daily for the next 4 weeks. No AAs.
Along with the progress pics, I’ve attached a couple graphs with my program info and measurements.
Thanks again for sharing your own progress.
-insfca
Hi, thank you for your very detailed summary of your plan and progress.
I have been using PM and herbs and Estrogen for over 5 years with mixed results.
The biggest change for me was internal, So much happens it is hard to know where to start.
If you are gay now your changes may be different than mine because I have been in relationships with women since high school and I am now in my 60s. However, in the last couple years my brain has made some surprising shifts and I fantasize more about being a woman with a man than a man with a woman...but maybe this was alwasy true and I was just not admitting it.
ANyway, during my 2 years on PM and FG I gained about 50lbs. I developed a small hard disk shaped thing behind my right nipple. My face became much more androgenous and I was already considered "cute" (shudder) by many people. (I was once described as the most "feminine alpha male" this particular person had ever met...I kind of liked that at the time). My breasts grew a couple inches but since I gained all that weight they never seemed like breasts...they did look good hoisted up a bit. I became very easy going in a difficult work environment which made it easier to coop with lunatics.
I also became almost completely impotent. This was not enjoyable.
I switched to a moderate dose of estrogen when I decided to sort of transition. I immeditatly had problems with inflammation specifically in my gums and hands. I could barely tolerate strong smells or foods and lost over 80lbs. My breasts vanished. I had strange sensations of being watched and the world in general became threatening and full of agency I did not understand. I could not play music or write which was awful as I am a guitarist and aspiring author.
So I went to a low dose and things are much better now. I gained 15lbs but eating is still a struggle. MY breasts began to grow...my libido came back but in an altered way. I write music again and compose long erotic stories about women I want to be...which has been a whole new experience that may be worth the price by itself.
But the inflammation recently came back and I cant stand it. I am switching to FG and pumping which I like.
Which brings me to pumping. I think this is the best option for many people. I have only been doing it for a month but the results are obviious. I now thing this with some sort of weight gain program may be all people need. It would be much nicer and much much safer than drugs within poorly studied side effects or even PM with its known muscle cramping side effects...but it may just be me.
I wish you all the best on your journies.
Owlie
Hi everyone,
This is my 8 week update. I have attached a couple graphs with daily intake and weekly measurements.
A few observations.
I took FG for a total of 29 days and PM for a total of 14 days. PM is by far the stronger supplement. I took 3 breaks during a 56 day period, one for 6 days, a second for 7 days and a third for 7 days.
I feel like in the 3rd break (2nd while taking PM), I still experienced growth. My nipples tingled and ached and it felt like something was changing.
Regarding the difference between PM and FG, growth (or changes anyway) was definitely more noticeable with PM while FG seemed to just swell the chest area.
After 8 weeks, I can feel the progress more than I can accurately photograph it. I can feel more weight and volume. Movement is also more noticeable but the “fat” on my chest is much firmer or denser than it was before. And my nipples have developed, becoming bigger and puffier.
Another interesting development is that while I didn’t gain much additional size with PM, the shape seemed to become rounder. The effects of PM seemed much more concentrated around the nipples and underbust. My nipples have become much sorer with PM and the left one seems to be hardening as if it’s about to bud.
In terms of my plans for this project, I definitely want to take a break longer than a week and see if my gains are permanent and/or how they settle down. But if there is shrinkage or my nipples revert to their former size and shape, the break could be shorter as a result. I have enough FG and fennel for perhaps another 3 weeks which I would like to use up. I have enough PM to last probably two months at one week on, one week off. Plus most of one tube of PM topical and all of a 2nd tube.
Another interesting data point I discovered when I looked at some blood work from a few years ago is that my T levels were pretty low. I wonder if this has contributed to what seems like a pretty strong response to PM without AAs. My libido is also pretty weak but I can still get erections just fine.
Meanwhile, I’ve discovered a whole community of gyno enthusiasts who are into men with breasts, mostly naturally developed rather than with PM or HRT. The scene seems to be pretty big in Brazil and on Brazilian messaging groups and apps. I assumed breast men were mostly confined to trans or trans leaning people or perhaps those with some form of autogynephilia, but apparently that’s not entirely the case.
Anyway best of luck to everyone. Not sure when I’ll be back but I will definitely be dropping in and following everybody’s progress from time to time.
-insfca
Hi
You are definitely gettin grounder up there! Whatever you are doing is definitely working!
Keep up the good work!
Hi everyone,
I’m back again (sooner than expected) with a 12 week update. This is the conclusion of my first 90 days (more or less) of my road to boobs.
You can see what I took and in what quantities in the attachments below as well as my measurements and a couple photos.
I ended up taking a total of two weeks off (13 days) between the previous 7 days of PM and this last round which ran 4 days of FG and 10 days of PM. I had planned to start the next round tomorrow but restarted today on PM at 1500mg per day and PM topical 2x day.
I know the photos don’t show it very well, but I can definitely feel the progress. It’s amazing how much the internal changes are felt before they are seen.
I’m beginning another 12 week regimen tomorrow. The plan is to use only PM for the 1st 6 weeks and then depending on my progress, to start topical progesterone and DHEA for the 2nd 6 weeks. Of course, it’s subject to change, depending on what my body is telling me.
The hope is that at the end of this 2nd 12 week period, I’ll more or less be where I want to be for a while, ie A cups. The addition of progesterone will also hopefully promote the shape I want.
I’ve definitely noticed that there is circular, dense tissue under my nipples now. So I’m expecting further development aka budding to occur over the next few weeks.
I’ve also noticed that for me the ideal dose for PM is 1500mg per day divided into three 500mg capsules morning, noon, and night. 1000mg didn’t produce much development and 2000mg felt like a little too much and gave me leg cramps. I also find that topical application of PM twice a day accelerates growth. In fact, I stopped the topical part-way through the last round because the changes were accelerating more than I wanted.
I’d like to describe how I’m feeling overall about growing breasts as a heretofore cisgender gay man. I’ve been deep diving into transgender thought and experience on reddit. The politics of it all is byzantine in its complexity. The acronyms to describe all the variations are almost impenetrable to me. The disagreements often come across as ideological but ultimately are mostly semantic.
If it weren’t such an offensive stereotype, you might think the people in those subreddits were suffering from the runaway emotions of “that time of the month.” 
No one seems to think that gender lies on a spectrum and can be experienced differently depending on both physiological and sociological circumstances, not to mention time of life. People change. Society changes and makes space (and can take away space) for self expression. The loudest voices are those staking out positions and defending them to the death.
This is what I have come away with so far in relation to myself and why I am doing this. There are several ways to experience transgender feelings and thoughts. One is dysphoria and another is euphoria. I seem to fall into the latter camp of experiencing gender euphoria with regard to breasts. It’s also sexually arousing and subversive.
When I’m taking PM and feeling the changes in my body and seeing small breasts begin to take shape, I have a sense of joy and well-being and of being naughty. It’s not in response to hating anything about my body. It’s more about experiencing it in a new way. This is not about becoming my true self but exploring my latent self. I’m not running away from my maleness but rather searching for my femaleness.
Estrogen therapy for males (NBE or HRT) doesn’t seem like a zero sum game to me. The male self and the female self can co-exist, overlap, and even encourage one another. This is what I understand by the indigenous term “two spirit” to mean. Gender like orientation is on a spectrum. One can move back and forth, depending on time of life, time of year, time of day, etc. Or so it seems if you are inclined that way. I know others are more fixed in their direction and identity. I know I am in regards to orientation.
Thanks for following. My next update will be in 6 weeks instead of 4. See you then!
Reddit is Cancer. Period. Kudos for stepping back and taking it with a grain of salt.
Also, congrats on "listening to your body" and dropping your PM dose. 2kmg worked for me, but anything higher gave me crippling leg cramps.
Try adding a daily aspirin or similar blood thinner. While White Peony is known for being Aromatase, it also can fight thrombosis.
Best of luck to you.