I've been taking BO for about 10 days but I have a couple of questions concerning other supplements. I take 4 Swansons BO daily along with kelp. I also take 640mg Saw Palmetto (85%+ fatty acids), 1000mg Stinging Nettle Root, and a Collagen supplement that also contains Biotin, Fo-Ti root extract and L-Cysteine. I have also been taking a hair regrowth capsule that contains Folic Acid, Pantothenic Acid, Fo-Ti, BioPerine, Iodine, Zinc and Saw Palmetto, Pueraria Lobata, and Phytosterol Complex (soy). My total testosterone was tested at 178 (100 points below the bottom of their range). Does my testosterone need to be lower in order to see results? My understanding is that BO aromatizes testosterone into estrogen so I would think it would need some testosterone to work with. I have also read that BO contains estrogen so I don't know which is correct. I decided to take stinging nettle because it is supposed to interfere with SHBG and free up testosterone & estrogen. However, I'm concerned that it might be counter productive if the BO is not converting the T into E. I've noticed that the morning wood has returned nearly every morning where before it was only several times a month. I imagine it is the stinging nettle because I haven't taken the it the past couple days and I haven't noticed the morning wood. I was thinking about taking Reishi if I need something to bring the T down further but I don't know how much to take. I've also had some concerns about the Phytosterol Complex and Puararia Lobata in the hair product slowing down the BO or causing it to not work effectively. I would appreciate any input so that I can see some results. Thanks.
(27-04-2016, 01:24 AM)nightgazer12 Wrote: [ -> ]I've been taking BO for about 10 days but I have a couple of questions concerning other supplements. I take 4 Swansons BO daily along with kelp. I also take 640mg Saw Palmetto (85%+ fatty acids), 1000mg Stinging Nettle Root, and a Collagen supplement that also contains Biotin, Fo-Ti root extract and L-Cysteine. I have also been taking a hair regrowth capsule that contains Folic Acid, Pantothenic Acid, Fo-Ti, BioPerine, Iodine, Zinc and Saw Palmetto, Pueraria Lobata, and Phytosterol Complex (soy). My total testosterone was tested at 178 (100 points below the bottom of their range). Does my testosterone need to be lower in order to see results? My understanding is that BO aromatizes testosterone into estrogen so I would think it would need some testosterone to work with. I have also read that BO contains estrogen so I don't know which is correct. I decided to take stinging nettle because it is supposed to interfere with SHBG and free up testosterone & estrogen. However, I'm concerned that it might be counter productive if the BO is not converting the T into E. I've noticed that the morning wood has returned nearly every morning where before it was only several times a month. I imagine it is the stinging nettle because I haven't taken the it the past couple days and I haven't noticed the morning wood. I was thinking about taking Reishi if I need something to bring the T down further but I don't know how much to take. I've also had some concerns about the Phytosterol Complex and Puararia Lobata in the hair product slowing down the BO or causing it to not work effectively. I would appreciate any input so that I can see some results. Thanks.
I would drop the saw palmetto and anything else that contains any phytosterols like the hair product you mentioned, and the stinging nettle. I do think you should try to decrease your testosterone though if decreasing male function is something you want to have happen. Breast growth CAN occur even with T that high, but it'll be slower. Alternatives that shouldn't mess up BO are chinese skullcap, EGCg from green tea extract, and anything containing coumarin, which is the active in the reishi you mentioned when it comes to anti-androgenic properties. Though I'd try to get something purer in the coumarin department, reishi also contains psycho-actives that will be dangerous long before you reach dangerous levels of coumarin from reishi.
What dosage of reishi capsule works best for lowering T? Does Chinese Skullcap have any other health benefits like the reishi? I remember reading somewhere that skullcap completely eliminates T but I imagine that was an exaggeration. I know skullcap is easy to get since I noticed it the last time I was at the grocery store. Which one is gentler on the stomach and less likely to make me feel nauseous?
I think I was probably the one who said something like that once upon a time. Though that was before I did more research and realized that the two actives in chinese skullcap while working at the target point I talked about, only reached about 50% total efficacy. So it only blocks half of your testosterone production on its own, and at rather high doses. Those doses are safe though, chinese skullcap is incredibly safe. It just gets pricier than you might expect due to the high doses. You also need to not be squeamish about taking fistfuls of pills. Because you literally would be taking fistfuls of capsules of chinese skullcap alone to reach a 50% reduction in testosterone from chinese skullcap. As noted by Lotus in what has been split off to a new thread as well, CS can also have a potential sedative effect. Not inherently dangerous, but it could be something undesirable if you do experience it.
Reishi is not effective as an anti-androgen (according to my research, some people have OPINIONS to the contrary), and has an estrogenic effect which is inadvisable to combine with BO.
EDIT: To be fair, reishi DOES have an anti-androgenic effect, due partly to its estrogenic sterols, and due partly to a low coumarin content. I say it's not effective because the effect is too small at safe doses of reishi to really matter.
So if skullcap will lower T roughly 50% that should get my total T under 100. You mentioned taking a fistful of pills, roughly how many milligrams a day are needed? Also I am curious how fast the body will drop T to a lower level using skullcap, reishi or one of the other commonly used items? Is it something that takes months or just a matter of weeks? I have been contemplating putting the BO aside until my T is lower so that it is not wasted. I tried PM for 3 months and didn't see any changes other than slower facial hair growth and better skin.
Wmpwiwle - how long did it take reishi to noticeably lower your T? Did you have a blood test that showed it lower or was it just noticeable by changes to your body?
(28-04-2016, 06:21 AM)nightgazer12 Wrote: [ -> ]So if skullcap will lower T roughly 50% that should get my total T under 100. You mentioned taking a fistful of pills, roughly how many milligrams a day are needed? Also I am curious how fast the body will drop T to a lower level using skullcap, reishi or one of the other commonly used items? Is it something that takes months or just a matter of weeks? I have been contemplating putting the BO aside until my T is lower so that it is not wasted. I tried PM for 3 months and didn't see any changes other than slower facial hair growth and better skin.
Wmpwiwle - how long did it take reishi to noticeably lower your T? Did you have a blood test that showed it lower or was it just noticeable by changes to your body?
When I used it I was using about 4800mg a day in 12 capsules of Swanson's brand. While I did not experience any drowsiness from it, it is a common effect from CS, so just be aware of that.
Lotus split off the discussion about reishi between us but he finally convinced me that the evidence is good that it is a potent DHT blocker. This won't effect the level of testosterone you are looking at, it only effects the more potent androgen that derives from that. I still don't recommend it with a BO program, however, because it does contain an estrogenic compound that is fairly weak in effect but quite competitive, I'm not sure if it might compete with the BO too strongly.
That has definitely given me something to think about. I will have to try a bottle of CS and see if it makes me drowsy. I rarely get a good night's sleep so I may not notice any difference. I definitely don't want to take reishi if it might impede progress of the BO. In the 90 days I tried PM I only saw nicer skin. In just10 days of BO, my nipples are larger and more erect than they have ever been.
Now if I can get my T lower I should see better progress. I'm really hoping to see some lower body fat redistribution. Bigger butt, hips and thighs....
it only took a week for me to notice the changes. I didnt have any blood tests. I could just tell from lower libido and my testicles shrunk.
(29-04-2016, 07:38 PM)wmpwiwlw Wrote: [ -> ]it only took a week for me to notice the changes. I didnt have any blood tests. I could just tell from lower libido and my testicles shrunk.
True, it's also possible for him to just be a non-responder to BO. Not everyone responds to any particular method. Were you taking only BO? He's been mixing in phyto-estrogens, which can interfere with BO.