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Just doing some more reading and a thought occured to me about anti androgens and their side effects.
Licorice has blood pressure raising, sodium raising and potassium lowering side effects along with water retention, that coincidentally happen to be the Exact opposite of Spiros side effects ( well its a side effect for us anyway).
Sooooo... I think you can tell where I'm going with this, but just in case.
Both are anti androgens And counter each others unwanted effects, could this be the perfect synergy?

Probably one for Lotus I suspect Big Grin
(02-03-2016, 04:17 PM)Katie Wrote: [ -> ]Sooooo... I think you can tell where I'm going with this, but just in case.
Both are anti androgens And counter each others unwanted effects, could this be the perfect synergy?

Probably one for Lotus I suspect Big Grin

Lol, I do see where your going. a quick point though, I do see (call it) a " perfect storm " or combination of herbs to induce puberty. The exact sequence ???, but....it would 11 beta HSD, combined with GH (growth hormone), possibly STAT5 protein, and protein kinase?.......first step is inhibiting cortisol though, then up-regulating GH through the HPA (hypothalamus pituitary axis).

But.......licorice is a ticking time bomb.
Quote:Its main constituent, glycyrrhizic acid, mimics miner- alocorticoids in its action (sodium reabsorb- tion and potassium secretion). The extent of metabolic and acid–base derangement can occasionally be severe enough to cause serious complications.


If you look at the pharmakonetics of both (LR & spiro) it's very interesting though. Spiro and its unintended consequence displaces estrogen from SHBG, this......we want. 11beta HSB inhibits cortisol.....this we want too. LR would be used for adrenal fatigue, however....only for 2 weeks at a time. Unfortunately, this risk is too great imo. What LR does for NBE is it inhibits 5 ar, upregulates E2, lowers prolactin, inhibit cortisol.


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Licorice abuse: time to send a warning message
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...454322.pdf

like activity of licorice root constituents: glabridin and glabrene, in vascular tissues in vitro and in vivo.
Somjen D1, Knoll E, Vaya J, Stern N, Tamir S.
Author information
Abstract
Post-menopausal women have higher incidence of heart diseases compared to pre-menopausal women, suggesting a protective role for estrogen. The recently Women's Health Initiative (WHI) randomized controlled trial concluded that the overall heart risk exceeded benefits from use of combined estrogen and progestin as hormone replacement therapy for an average of five years among healthy postmenopausal US women. Therefore, there is an urgent need for new agents with tissue-selective activity with no deleterious effects. In the present study, we tested the effects on vascular tissues in vitro and in vivo of two natural compounds derived from licorice root: glabridin, the major isoflavan, and glabrene, an isoflavene, both demonstrated estrogen-like activities. Similar to estradiol-17beta (E2), glabridin (gla) stimulated DNA synthesis in human endothelial cells (ECV-304; E304) and had a bi-phasic effect on proliferation of human vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMC). Raloxifene inhibited gla as well as E2 activities. In animal studies, both intact females or after ovariectomy, gla similar to E2 stimulated the specific activity of creatine kinase (CK) in aorta (Ao) and in left ventricle of the heart (Lv). Glabrene (glb), on the other hand, had only the stimulatory effect on DNA synthesis in vascular cells, with no inhibition by raloxifene, suggesting a different mechanism of action. To further elucidate the mechanism of action of glb, cells were pre-incubated with glb and then exposed to either E2 or to gla; the DNA stimulation at low doses was unchanged but there was abolishment of the inhibition of VSMC cell proliferation at high doses as well as inhibition of CK stimulation by both E2 and by gla. We conclude that glb behaved differently than E2 or gla, but similarly to raloxifene, being a partial agonist/antagonist of E2. Glabridin, on the other hand, demonstrated only estrogenic activity. Therefore, we suggest the use of glb with or without E2 as a new agent for modulation of vascular injury and atherogenesis for the prevention of cardiovascular diseases in post-menopausal women.


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This study below is another way, or pathway LR inhibits 5 ar (via P450 3A4 enzyme)

The licorice root derived isoflavan glabridin inhibits the activities of human cytochrome P450S 3A4, 2B6, and 2C9.
Kent UM1, Aviram M, Rosenblat M, Hollenberg PF.
Author information
Abstract
The potent antioxidants licorice root extract and glabridin, an isoflavan purified from licorice root extract, were tested for their ability to modulate the activities of several cytochrome P450 (P450) enzymes. P450 3A4, the major human drug metabolizing P450 enzyme, was inactivated by licorice root extract and by glabridin in a time-and concentration-dependent manner. The inactivation was NADPH-dependent and was not reversible by extensive dialysis. Further analysis showed that the loss in enzymatic activity correlated with a loss in the P450-reduced CO spectrum and with a loss of the intact heme moiety. In contrast, incubations of P450 3A4 with similar concentrations of 2,4-dimethylglabridin and NADPH did not lead to inactivation of P450 3A4. P450 2B6 was also inactivated by glabridin in a time- and concentration-dependent manner. The majority of the glabridin-inactivated P450 2B6 was able to form a reduced CO spectrum suggesting that the heme was not modified with this isoform. High-performance liquid chromatography analysis of the P450 heme confirmed that incubations with glabridin and NADPH did not result in the destruction of the heme moiety. The activity of P450 2C9 was competitively inhibited by glabridin, whereas P450 2D6 and P450 2E1 were virtually unaffected. The data show that glabridin can serve as a substrate for at least three human P450 enzymes and that depending on the isoform, metabolism of glabridin can lead to mechanism-based inactivation or inhibition of the P450. Heme and reduced CO spectral analysis also indicated that glabridin inactivated P450s 2B6 and 3A4 by different mechanisms.
PMID: 12019199 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Free full text

Shessh, information overload, I'll get to spiro later.......and more on the combo of LR and spiro. gotta run Wink
Topical spiro is a Pharma example of eliminating DHT in the sebaceous gland......in other words, spiro does more for NBE/Hrt.

spironolactone inhibits dihydrotestosterone receptors in human sebaceous glands: an autoradiographic study in subjects with acne vulgaris.
Berardesca E1, Gabba P, Ucci G, Borroni G, Rabbiosi G.
Author information


Abstract
The interaction between spironolactone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) receptors was evaluated with an autoradiographic technique. The inhibition of DHT receptors by spironolactone was found to be related to the decrease of tritiated DHT granules in the sebaceous glands of the treated site. 6 male patients affected by acne vulgaris entered the study. The acute study was performed by applying to 25 cm2 of the back a cream containing 5% spironolactone under occlusive dressing. The dosage of spironolactone applied was 4 mg/cm2 for 48 h. The long-term study was performed by applying the same amount to the entire back, without occlusion, twice daily for 1 month. Skin biopsies were taken at the end of the treatment, incubated with tritiated DHT and processed for autoradiography. Both the acute and the long-term study revealed a decrease of the autoradiographic granules in the treated site. This effect is related to the binding of spironolactone with dihydrotestosterone receptors in the sebaceous glands. Our study demonstrates that 5% topical spironolactone cream acts as an antiandrogen in human sebaceous glands, competing with DHT receptors and producing a decrease of labelled DHT. At the concentrations used the effect has been only local. No side-effects were recorded during both studies.
PMID: 2972662 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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A side note to spiro, (and or side effect) is spasms, I'm not sure as to why yet. I get them usually on my sides (lateral muscles) @ 50 mg. Anybody else experience spasms when using spiro?.

Smile
(04-03-2016, 12:38 AM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ]A side note to spiro, (and or side effect) is spasms, I'm not sure as to why yet. I get them usually on my sides (lateral muscles) @ 50 mg. Anybody else experience spasms when using spiro?.

Smile

I do.... Usually in front, right under my rib case and at night when sleeping I notice my lower legs sort of twitching..... But, I am taking 50 Spiro, and 5 of Finn.... soo????????
(04-03-2016, 12:48 AM)iaboy Wrote: [ -> ]
(04-03-2016, 12:38 AM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ]A side note to spiro, (and or side effect) is spasms, I'm not sure as to why yet. I get them usually on my sides (lateral muscles) @ 50 mg. Anybody else experience spasms when using spiro?.

Smile

I do.... Usually in front, right under my rib case and at night when sleeping I notice my lower legs sort of twitching..... But, I am taking 50 Spiro, and 5 of Finn.... soo????????

I think I got it, it has something to do with low potassium levels. Yes, I know spiro is potassium sparing, but it's still a diuretic..........which means potassium in muscle is lowered. Tricky business potassium, nothing to f**k around with. Reinforces the importance of having blood work being tested.

Another thing (especially in the morning) is the lack of muscle mobility overnight, I usually get them in the morning too, painful too.
I've been on 50mg twice a day for 3 months and have not had a spasm yet. Although spiro is also used to treat or prevent hypokalemia (low potassium levels in the blood), it is possible your not getting enough potassium and spasms certainly could be one symptom of that. Given how much soda, coffee and tea some folks drink spiro may not be the only diuretic in your life.

My initial blood work prior to starting spiro showed my potassium at:

5 mmo/L (3.5-5.2 normal range)

This level was from actually reaching my RDA for potassium each day from whole foods. Before eating a whole food plant based diet I doubt I ever reached my daily RDA for potassium.

I just had my 3 month blood work done so it will be interesting to see the results because, on the advice of my doc, I never changed my diet.
Sounds like some of you need extra magnesium, it stops dead any cramps or spasms, espescially the citrate and within seconds if injected!

It even says to avoid spiro if you have low Mg levels, maybe that's why?

I eat Love Hearts to stop cramps that
i used to get (not spiro related), their inexpensive, and Super tasty Big Grin
(04-03-2016, 04:31 PM)Katie Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds like some of you need extra magnesium, it stops dead any cramps or spasms, espescially the citrate and within seconds if injected!

It even says to avoid spiro if you have low Mg levels, maybe that's why?

I eat Love Hearts to stop cramps that
i used to get (not spiro related), their inexpensive, and Super tasty Big Grin

Normally, if a person is healthy, and experience cramps. Many doctors suggest to include a banana a day for the potassium. But, in my case, potassium was normal, but one drug was striping my salt levels away. So, my doctor changed one med out, and suggested magnesium. I still do get cramps and spasms. But not even close to the degree I used to.