I'm curious what brands/sources and dosages people are using.
I tried searching and got 26 pages of results for "peony dose." While I read a lot of interesting stuff from Lotus (excellent thread on the various herbs), I still am no closer to an idea of how much to start with. Part of me wants to just go with the LEF immune support product and see what happens.
I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere, and I just missed it.
Hi Monika.
I haven't used white peony, but I think Lenneth has and maybe AbiDrew. Hopefully they or others could give you some tips in this regard.
Flame, thanks for the response. I'll see if it is Abi's program thread. I can't recall if Lenneth has an official program thread or not.
I did some math and it's discouraging. In
this study the paeoniflorin concentration they used was 100 mcg/ml.
In mice, giving them 10 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight yielded a maximum blood concentration of 111 ng/ml. So using linear extrapolation, to get 100 mcg/ml in mice you'd have to give them 9009 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight. To get the human equivalent dose you divide by 12.3 (to account for the mouse's faster metabolism) and get 732 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight. That is an insane amount, so this study isn't very helpful for dose determination. One can only hope that lower doses will still have an effect.
In rats, a dose of 300 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight resulted in 3.69 mcg/ml. So to get to 100 mcg/ml they'd need 8130 mg/kg. Divide by 6.2 to get the human equivalent dose and we get 1311 mg/kg, which is an even more discouraging number.
(19-09-2014, 12:52 AM)Candace Wrote: [ -> ]I did some math and it's discouraging. In this study the paeoniflorin concentration they used was 100 mcg/ml. In mice, giving them 10 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight yielded a maximum blood concentration of 111 ng/ml. So using linear extrapolation, to get 100 mcg/ml in mice you'd have to give them 9009 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight. To get the human equivalent dose you divide by 12.3 (to account for the mouse's faster metabolism) and get 732 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight. That is an insane amount, so this study isn't very helpful for dose determination. One can only hope that lower doses will still have an effect.
In rats, a dose of 300 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight resulted in 3.69 mcg/ml. So to get to 100 mcg/ml they'd need 8130 mg/kg. Divide by 6.2 to get the human equivalent dose and we get 1311 mg/kg, which is an even more discouraging number.
Oy, that IS discouraging. Perhaps with everything else I take, I can get by with less given how expensive white peony supplements can be. Mountain Rose is fairly inexpensive, $12/lb of bulk root, but then it isn't standardized, and I don't have time to process it and encapsulate. Sadly, licorice root is too dangerous for me since I tend to have issues with high BP.
Thanks, Candace. Btw, I saw in another thread you had a similar thought to mine regarding LEF selling white peony for immune support. What really surprised me is that they were on a big kick about low T a few years ago, and now they are actively promoting something that is known to promote aromatization. Then again, they also prefer topical, bio-identical T which can also aromatize in the skin. I'm really starting to wonder about them.
I'm still curious if anyone is using peony and getting results. I might never see results or need it. My free T is in the female range. Not sure where my E is. The only way my doctor and insurance will test is if I admit I'm getting breast pain, and then the doc will want to stop it, if my E is too high. I'm getting the results I want, I guess, but it took 18-24 months just to get breast buds.
(19-09-2014, 12:52 AM)Candace Wrote: [ -> ]I did some math and it's discouraging. In this study the paeoniflorin concentration they used was 100 mcg/ml. In mice, giving them 10 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight yielded a maximum blood concentration of 111 ng/ml. So using linear extrapolation, to get 100 mcg/ml in mice you'd have to give them 9009 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight. To get the human equivalent dose you divide by 12.3 (to account for the mouse's faster metabolism) and get 732 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight. That is an insane amount, so this study isn't very helpful for dose determination. One can only hope that lower doses will still have an effect.
In rats, a dose of 300 mg paeoniflorin/kg bodyweight resulted in 3.69 mcg/ml. So to get to 100 mcg/ml they'd need 8130 mg/kg. Divide by 6.2 to get the human equivalent dose and we get 1311 mg/kg, which is an even more discouraging number.
Candace,
I just read the abstract you referenced. It seems they arbitrarily chose 100mcg/ml and had profound results. That tells me it probably doesn't require that kind of dosing to see some sort of desired result. I'm not sure what they were trying to prove or why, but it certainly isn't for purposes of finding a good human dose to cause aromatization in males so they can grow breasts or to lower excessive T in human females.
I dug up the
full text of another paper by the same author, and it appears to have the full data set. 100 mcg/ml was the lowest paeoniflorin concentration that had a statistically-significant effect. (Page 10 of the pdf.) It increased androstenedione, decreased testosterone, and did nothing to estradiol. Just looking at that, you'd think it was just a
17-beta-HSD inhibitor. Glycyrrhetinic acid was the only chemical that increased the estradiol/testosterone ratio, and it looks like that came entirely from a reduction in T. I can't read Japanese and the Google translation is a mess, so I don't know their reasoning behind claiming aromatase was stimulated.
There's also some data on giving the herbs to live rats. Peony is called Shakuyaku here. 90 mg/kg was required to lower T. Estradiol looks like it went up, but the error bars are huge so it wasn't a significant change. When they removed the rats' ovaries, peony didn't work any more, so it apparently doesn't work in the adrenals or fat tissue. Maybe it would work in the testicles?
I also dug up
human pharmacokinetics. 145 mg of paeoniflorin was extracted from 5 g of peony root. 2.9% seems a bit low, so perhaps the extraction process wasn't very thorough. That dose provided a Cmax of 397.5 ng/ml. (But only 103.6 ng/ml if combined with licorice.) So to get 100 mcg/ml you'd need to take 36,478 mg paeoniflorin. That's 521 mg/kg for a 70 kg human, which is sort-of close to the estimate from the mouse study.
So then I did a search on Shakuyaku and found that
2.5-5 g peony + 2.5-5 g licorice does have an effect on T in human women. (I'm assuming the peony and licorice were combined in equal amounts like I've read elsewhere.) It dropped from 50-160 ng/dl to less than 50 ng/dl. That would be 72-145 mg paeoniflorin, which is very reasonable. Maybe it gets super-concentrated in the ovaries so you don't need 100 mcg/ml in the blood?
(19-09-2014, 01:42 AM)MonikaT Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks, Candace. Btw, I saw in another thread you had a similar thought to mine regarding LEF selling white peony for immune support. What really surprised me is that they were on a big kick about low T a few years ago, and now they are actively promoting something that is known to promote aromatization. Then again, they also prefer topical, bio-identical T which can also aromatize in the skin. I'm really starting to wonder about them.
I think this issue is one where they're well-informed. They recommend that testosterone be given with an Arimidex dose of
1 mg per week and are critical of some idiots who gave men 1 mg/day and obliterated their estrogen.
Candace, once again, thank you for all the research. From what you've posted, it sounds like licorice root, alone or in combination with peony root, is the better choice. Unfortunately, licorice is also more dangerous and not worth the risk. I still might go with the LEF product if for no other reason than the immune boost. As I age, I can use all the help I can get. I think one of the biggest issues in trying to extrapolate from an animal model to a human one is that the difference in rate of metabolism is only one factor. Different species can be more (or less) reactive to a specific substance.
On a side note, LEF might recommend 1 mg of Arimidex per week, but I keep running into the idiots who won't even consider it until I tell them I'm having breast pain. Now, given that would be desired in my case, why wokld I ever mention it until I achieved my desired level of growth?
Yeah, licorice is one of those things that needs to be cycled. When I use White Peony, I use the extract .5 ml 2x per day and try to let it absorb a bit in my mouth before I swallow it.