We encounter many people in our daily lives, whether by telephone, static or moving images e.g. TV,or directly using one or more of our senses. Whatever the form of contact, we nearly always manage to assign a sex to each person with a high degree of reliability.
What are the essential cues that enable us to achieve this over such a wide range of sensory input data? To keep OT, breast development is one clue, although never of itself conclusive (!), but what if breasts or their absence cannot be seen or felt? What lessons are are there to be learned here by those who would seek to pass in a gender differing from their biological sex? Some of the answers may seem obvious, but I remain astonished that our brains manage to gather and weight available input data more or less subconsciously, and make instantaneous judgements based on data which often seems wholly insufficient. The brain's weighting of the data is obviously important here.
One way of looking at this is to consider those people who manage, deliberately or otherwise, to defeat our instantaneous assessment ability.. For example there was a newcomer to our village a few years back who managed to leave many initially querying his gender. Perhaps that is the ultimate badge of success in androgyny?
The mind's ability to recognize patterns in appearance, behavior, vocalization, etc. is truly an amazing ability. Properly assessing the gender of a person you meet face to face is extremely important to people because it determines how they should interact with that individual. I guess that's why I've always been somewhat uncomfortable meeting people that are androgynous in appearance. If I can't determine their gender, I feel I have to approach the person in a more reserved, careful manner.
I expect this is a source of some discomfort on the part of people who meet a transgender person who does not pass well as their target sex. The ambiguous cues lead to some uncertainty as to how to interact -- as to a man or as to a woman. I think it takes years of training and practice to pick up the subtle behaviors that mark one as a member of one sex or the other. It's another reason I won't try to present as a woman outside of a controlled environment. I feel it's tantamount to my trying to learn a new foreign language. Might be fun, but I'd never succeed at my age.
Clara
When I was in my early 20s, and clean-shaven with a ponytail, I'd rather often be addressed as "Miss". Used to drive me nuts. This no matter how manly I was dressed -- and it was pretty manly, considering I was doing construction at the time. Looking back at a few pictures, I guess I was fairly androgynous in certain features. But wearing all Carhartt, people? Come on!
At some point, I decided I didn't want to be androgynous any more, cut all my hair off, and grew a beard. Those were horrible years of my life, in many ways. I never even got laid the whole time I had the butch look. Seriously, the mountain man me could not get a girlfriend to save his life. I guess it's just not me, and when you're not you, people are not attracted... this I have learned.
Then when I'd had enough of that... shaved off the beard and came out of the tranny closet... I had 3 ladies practically fighting over me in as many months. I have not since wanted for attention of the clothed or unclothed variety, from any sex, gender, or creed. Not like I'm beating people off with a stick, mind, but still to have to say "no" now and then is something.
Anyway... now I'm happy to hear a "Miss" now and then, because it means someone thinks I'm a bit younger than a "Ma'am"!
An example of 'who really knows?'...
Many years ago I was at a tv event in London with a group of tv friends( the expression 'tg' hadn't really been invented back then). We were all in our 40's and 50's at that time.
Suddenly one of them ( Julie) rushed off to a table the other side of the dance floor, to a group that none of us knew. A few minutes later (s)he came back obviously in a state of shock and confusion, said that everything was Ok but to excuse him, and he went back to the other table. We later found out that at the other table, was Julie's BROTHER. Neither of them knew about the others TV side, and they hadn't recognised each other, but both of them had their GG gf's with them and the two women had recognised each other!
Moral of the story, expect the unexpected!
(16-03-2014, 07:39 AM)Pansy-Mae Wrote: [ -> ]An example of 'who really knows?'...
Many years ago I was at a tv event in London with a group of tv friends( the expression 'tg' hadn't really been invented back then). We were all in our 40's and 50's at that time.
Suddenly one of them ( Julie) rushed off to a table the other side of the dance floor, to a group that none of us knew. A few minutes later (s)he came back obviously in a state of shock and confusion, said that everything was Ok but to excuse him, and he went back to the other table. We later found out that at the other table, was Julie's BROTHER. Neither of them knew about the others TV side, and they hadn't recognised each other, but both of them had their GG gf's with them and the two women had recognised each other!
Moral of the story, expect the unexpected!
Wow, that must have been interesting.
also makes me wonder all the more if GD/similar issues may be hereditary.
(16-03-2014, 01:47 AM)AnnabelP Wrote: [ -> ]We encounter many people in our daily lives, whether by telephone, static or moving images e.g. TV,or directly using one or more of our senses. Whatever the form of contact, we nearly always manage to assign a sex to each person with a high degree of reliability.
What are the essential cues that enable us to achieve this over such a wide range of sensory input data? To keep OT, breast development is one clue, although never of itself conclusive (!), but what if breasts or their absence cannot be seen or felt? What lessons are are there to be learned here by those who would seek to pass in a gender differing from their biological sex? Some of the answers may seem obvious, but I remain astonished that our brains manage to gather and weight available input data more or less subconsciously, and make instantaneous judgements based on data which often seems wholly insufficient. The brain's weighting of the data is obviously important here.
On a related note, after having just become aware of my probable GID a few months ago, I've had a couple of instances where people have reacted to me that made me wonder if they picked up a TG "vibe" from me. Now, I'm not positive in either case, but what's interesting to me is that as far as I can tell, I haven't changed my appearance or mannerisms. So, is it likely I actually have made some changes, so subtle that I'm not even aware if them?
Annabel,
I like your new avatar. I read in another of your posts that you wanted to retire the pig avatar, but I didn't expect it to be this soon.
It reminds me of when Sarah ditched the goat avatar.
I think the workings of the brain can be a very complex topic in regards to matters like discerning gender. There may also be a cultural aspect for how we expect men and women to look (i.e., women typically have longer hair while men usually have shorter haircuts).
Michelle, if you don't mind me asking, what would you consider to be "TG vibes?" As far as making subconscious changes to alter your expression of gender, I think it's very possible.
(17-03-2014, 01:04 PM)flamesabers Wrote: [ -> ]Michelle, if you don't mind me asking, what would you consider to be "TG vibes?" As far as making subconscious changes to alter your expression of gender, I think it's very possible.
Flame,
That's exactly the sort of thing that I meant by "TG vibes": those subtle, possibly unconscious or subconscious, non-explicit (in contrast to dressing en femme, for example) cues as to my expression of gender.
If you think it's very possible, do you have any speculations on what those changes might be. I'm curious to see if I can spot them; and it may be useful to see if I can try to manage them.
Michelle
(17-03-2014, 01:04 PM)flamesabers Wrote: [ -> ]Annabel,
I like your new avatar. I read in another of your posts that you wanted to retire the pig avatar, but I didn't expect it to be this soon. It reminds me of when Sarah ditched the goat avatar.
I think the workings of the brain can be a very complex topic in regards to matters like discerning gender. There may also be a cultural aspect for how we expect men and women to look (i.e., women typically have longer hair while men usually have shorter haircuts).
Michelle, if you don't mind me asking, what would you consider to be "TG vibes?" As far as making subconscious changes to alter your expression of gender, I think it's very possible.
Having once started down that road, I thought I'd better fire the pig while still thinking about it. I always thought it quite a good likeness but it seemed time for a change. It's a pity that the board dumps discarded avatars.
Your own for example would make quite an interesting parade.
As for TG vibes, they are just the kind of things I was speculating about, if only we could identify what produces them.
