Breast Growth For Genetic Males

(17-01-2014, 03:24 PM)ClaraKay Wrote: [ -> ]I consider myself extremely fortunate that my wife is okay with my mixed gender identity and the ways it manifests itself (cross dressing, feminization, NBE).

I had no idea she would be this accepting. In fact, when I first came out to her, she was in shock. My first thought was that I should have kept quiet about it. The look of disappointment on her face was crushing.

Two things turned it around. First was allaying her fear that I was gay. I think she thought that meant we would split up eventually. Second, I was prepared to help her understand what gender identity disorder (GID) was all about and how much anxiety and stress it has caused me over the years. I had spent time learning about it myself for weeks before opening up to her. That gave us something to talk about while keeping emotions at bay.

Later, when I started on PM, and we both noted an improvement in my general state of mind, she start to see it as a good thing. She started to work with me on my gender issues. Her only request was that we keep it private, at least for the time being. I had no problem with that.

Over the past 3 months that I've been taking PM, my wife has been intimately involved in my gender evolution. (My choice of 'intimately' was intentional. ) I think that has helped, too.

I started this thread because I know that not everyone has a sympathetic partner sharing his/her journey of gender discovery. What are the issues with partner acceptance? What can be done to turn that around or, at least, improve the situation?

Those that don't have partners should not feel left out on this. You may one day find that special person and need to reconcile your gender variant inclination as the relationship progresses. Please chime in, too.

CK

I started this thread some 16 months ago to discuss an important aspect of our being transgender, namely, how to gain spousal acceptance of our secret nature, and live more authentic lives.

I have met many TG/TS/CD people since that time, and I must say that SO acceptance seems to be the most troublesome barrier to coming out of the closet. I never met a single spouse of a transgender who was delighted to learn of her husband's trans nature. Many recoil at the prospect of living with an out-and-about trans woman or cross dresser. Most come to tolerate their husband's 'hobby' as long as clear boundaries are honored.

My spouse is, therefore, very unusual, and I'm reminded of it quite often. I've often wondered about her unconditional acceptance and unhesitating support of my transition to womanhood. Why is she so different than most wives in that way?

The obvious thing to do was to ask her. So I did. But, her answers aren't that revealing. "I love you, and want you to be happy," is music to my ears, but does that mean that all those other wives don't love their husbands and don't want them to be happy? I don't think so.

My wife was asked to write a column for a transgender newsletter about her perspective on being the wife of a transgender person. She hasn't agreed to do so, as yet. I think that being able to articulate how you feel about, and came to accept, being married to a trans woman is difficult. I'm hoping she decides to give it a shot. This is a subject matter that is sorely neglected given it's significance in the lives of every transgender couple I know.

One of the things I've noticed about my wife over the 30+ years we've been married is that she is very accepting of people, in general. Most of us, and I include myself here, tend to rely on stereotypes in our relations with minority, marginalized groups to some extent. My wife's not that way, and is quick to call attention to my own tendency to draw conclusions about a person based on their ethnicity, religion, politics, sexual orientation, etc. That characteristic of hers, I think, played a helpful part in her accepting my coming out transgender. She didn't automatically assign to me the unflattering, stereotypical traits that the media has unfairly burdened trans people with over the years.

Secondly, she doesn't seem to be overly concerned about what other people think of her personally. Normally, saying that means that she doesn't give a f--k about what others think, but that's not it at all. It’s more the inverse of the point of the previous paragraph. It's like: I won't judge you based on a stereotype, but also I won't allow you to judge me on that basis either. Not allowing the opinions of strangers to affect her life choices, makes it possible for her to decide for herself if my being trans is something she can live with.

Thirdly, she loves me and wants me to be happy. This might be the most important aspect of all because it kept doors open that might otherwise have been slammed shut. She sensed that I was a happier person being free to express my true gender. My being happier made her happier, and she wanted to find a way to make this work. She maintained a willingness to learn about transgenderism by discussing it with me and taking the time to read about it. Nothing is as scary as it first appears once an understanding is gained. Through her readings, our many discussions, and our getting to know other transgender people, rational thought replaced emotional reaction to each new step in my transition.

Lastly, a common refrain that I frequently hear is: "My wife does not want to be married to a woman." That's certainly a legitimate objection, depending on the situation, seeing as how intimate sexual relations are important in a marriage, especially for younger couples. For older couples, it's not as serious a stumbling block, as sexual desire tends to wane later in life. Still, even older marrieds enjoy intimate moments, and one's attraction to the opposite sex can kill that side of marriage in a heartbeat if you no longer fit the mold. I've always known my wife to be heterosexual, something she contends is fact, but it doesn't seem to be a significant factor in her decision to stay with me, at least while I'm still a pre-op trans woman (a penis is, after all, the most masculinizing body feature one can have, right?) When my transition is complete, will the balance tip the other way? I don't think so. As we've both become more comfortable with my gender, sexual intimacy has actually increased. Does that mean my wife is really bi-sexual? Maybe, but, again, I doubt it. Nothing points in that direction. She'll say that she married me for reasons deeper than external appearance. She'll say that she didn't marry me to occupy a space in a model life she's partial to.

I do encourage my trans friends to read two books about couples who stayed together when the husband decided late in life to transition:

One from the transgender person's viewpoint: "She's Not There" by Jennifer Finney Boylan, and another from the wife's viewpoint: "My Husband's a Woman Now" by Leslie Hilburn Fabian.

Encourage your SO to read them, too.

Clara

(23-04-2015, 05:15 PM)ClaraKay Wrote: [ -> ]I never met a single spouse of a transgender who was delighted to learn of her husband's trans nature. Many recoil at the prospect of living with an out-and-about trans woman or cross dresser. Most come to tolerate their husband's 'hobby' as long as clear boundaries are honored.

Clara,

I had considered asking this in another thread but didn't want to hi-jack that one (another BN member had started it).

Your statement (above) in large part reflects my situation. I've made it clear on these forums that my SO and family prevent any serious consideration on my part to transition, though I must admit I have given the subject a lot of thought. I have followed your progress with considerable interest (though I must say I am a bit taken back by the financial investment required).

I have often thought about the surgical techniques (such as FFS and SRS) and wondered what they could really do for me. I am a little youger than you (I'm 56) but have been blessed with some naturally female traits such as virtually no body hair and no trace of a receding hairline. I attribute that to very low DHT throughout my life.

Still, I have always seemed to stop at one irrefutable point, and I wonder how it is you deal with this reality. I know that genetically I have 46 chromosomes in each nucleic cell. I know that 44 of those are autosomes. The other two, however, are sex chromosomes... one is an X and one is a Y. It is the presence of the Y chromosome that makes me male and no amount of hormones or surgery can change that fact. As much as I dream of being female I know that there is no way to flip the basic chemistry inside my body.

I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, nor am I in any way judging those that have chosen the transition route. I am really curious, however, if this fact is at all troubling to you and how you deal with it (one way or the other).

Am I making sense?

Misty

Wow Clara. Thanks for posting that. I'm going to clip it out and send it to my wife. Not because she needs to think about what you've said but because she wants to know there are others like her. My wife is also fully supportive of my transition to the point of defending me against some very long time friends of hers who are subtly, and some not so subtly, telling her to cut and run. Why the hell they think they have a right to question her decisions and undermine our marriage is another topic for another time especially given the fact that their knowledge and research into transgenderism pales in comparison to ours. Of course, my wife doesn't WANT me to transition but she she gets it! She understands that this is not a choice for me and that any number of life changing events could disrupt the status quo of a marriage. I could have a paralyzing stroke, she could have dementia etc. etc. etc. She understands that leaving me solves nothing. It leaves both of us in very bad positions.

I am so proud of my wife for her dedication and loyalty to me, her thoughtful and rational conclusions about my gender issues and her willingness to defend her husband and transgender persons in general. I'll be eternally grateful for what she does for me despite what it has and will cost her in the future. God willing, I'll be able to return the favor (love) to her in some way before I die.

What you said Clara sums up my wife and our relationship perfectly but especially this part...

Thirdly, she loves me and wants me to be happy. This might be the most important aspect of all because it kept doors open that might otherwise have been slammed shut. She sensed that I was a happier person being free to express my true gender. My being happier made her happier, and she wanted to find a way to make this work. She maintained a willingness to learn about transgenderism by discussing it with me and taking the time to read about it. Nothing is as scary as it first appears once an understanding is gained. Through her readings, our many discussions, and our getting to know other transgender people, rational thought replaced emotional reaction to each new step in my transition.

I can honestly say, and my wife will confirm, we are a better, stronger, more deeply connected couple now, because of my transgender self, than we were before all this shit hit the fan. It's amazing what love and acceptance can do! Her love changed me. Now that my internal fight is at bay, I love others 100 times better. My wife, my kids, my friends, family and marginalized people in general have all enjoyed the much happier, grace filled, accepting person that I'm becoming. Mine is a success story for the record books thus far.

Misty,
You have been a long time friend of mine here. Do you mind if I have a go at your question?
You're right. I'll never be able to change that damn Y chromosome to an X. I'll never know what it's like to truly "BE" a female, to be Daddy's little girl, to have boys dote over and pursue me, to wear the prom dress, get asked to marry the man of my dreams, be the bride, be pregnant, or be a mom. I missed out on the very best experiences of being female, no doubt. But what I DO get is to experience life as I feel I was made to experience it, for the rest of my life. I get to be identified as, and treated like the girl I know myself to be, for the rest of my life! I get to know how it feels to live at peace with myself and I can't wait to get started. Yes, the price is high, emotionally, monetarily and relationally but NOT transitioning costs a lot too. Perhaps it would cost me life itself to continue being perceived as a male. And what the heck, that stupid Y chromosome isn't all that bad. I assume it's the origin of my mechanical ability which I find pretty handy and I suppose it helps me navigate roads and analyze things logically. No, I'll never truly be female but I can be truly ME, a hybrid of male and female, very unique indeed but certainly much better than my formerly conflicted self.

(23-04-2015, 09:25 PM)kari leigh Wrote: [ -> ]But what I DO get is to experience life as I feel I was made to experience it, for the rest of my life. I get to be identified as, and treated like the girl I know myself to be, for the rest of my life!

Hi Kari,

I think the statement above best describes the difference between us. I can't say I was "made to experience" life as a women. I have heard others say they "know" they are female, despite the physical male attributes, but I cannot say this. I know I "wish" I were female, but I can't say that I "am" female, nor that I even "should have been" female.

Is this simply a different spot on the TG scale, or is it something else altogether? I sometimes think my desire to be female is nothing more than a sexual fetish, and that the relief I get from PM is due to the PM squashing my sexual desires (including the fetish). At other times I think that isn't the case because I am a *much* more likeable person when I'm taking PM.

My 3 month break has reawakened my GD. I started back on PM a few days ago... hopefully the peace I once enjoyed will return.

Misty

(23-04-2015, 10:33 PM)Misty0732 Wrote: [ -> ]

(23-04-2015, 09:25 PM)kari leigh Wrote: [ -> ]But what I DO get is to experience life as I feel I was made to experience it, for the rest of my life. I get to be identified as, and treated like the girl I know myself to be, for the rest of my life!

Hi Kari,

I think the statement above best describes the difference between us. I can't say I was "made to experience" life as a women. I have heard others say they "know" they are female, despite the physical male attributes, but I cannot say this. I know I "wish" I were female, but I can't say that I "am" female, nor that I even "should have been" female.

Your description matches mine in just about every way, Misty. I think you are worrying about a false dichotomy, however.

Quote:Is this simply a different spot on the TG scale, or is it something else altogether? I sometimes think my desire to be female is nothing more than a sexual fetish, and that the relief I get from PM is due to the PM squashing my sexual desires (including the fetish). At other times I think that isn't the case because I am a *much* more likeable person when I'm taking PM.

You could think of it like this: PM makes us more likeable, because of the relief of PM squashing the sexual desires.

From a very small sample size, I have built a theory that, perhaps because men are visually oriented, they seem to need to build a mental fantasy in order to find the sexual act exciting enough to complete. This could be as simple as cheating on a wife in the case of the "standard" male.

With sufficient exposure to internet porn, other fantasies get imprinted, but for this to happen, it has to fit an underlying psychosexual interest. Predating the internet era, my interest in "she-males" was piqued by glossy magazines in suspicious bookshops in London, and I quickly realised that it would be far more exciting to be one of these people; but this was playing to the inherent autogynephilia caused, I believe, by insufficient testosterone exposure in the womb.

Regardless of whether this theory is correct, PM has enabled me to enjoy physical intimacy and climax as a female does; completely divorced from the male ejaculatory mechanism, and totally without the use of mental fantasy in any way.
I no longer have to "work at it" - it just takes me by surprise, every time.

Part of that very small sample I mentioned earlier was my wife, who agreed that fantasy plays no part in her obtaining climax, though it used to be essential for me.

I wonder whether the frustration of not being able to obtain release without the constant visualisation of oneself as a women is not part of a conditioned obsession that leads many heterosexual family men to go all the way with transition?

Correspondingly, I wonder if it is because, now that I have a more physically satisfying relationship with my wife than I ever managed before, that I do not feel the need to go through all the shennanigans associated with transformation?

I would recommend anyone using PM to take advantage of the possibility of female climax. Unlike the male kind that gets more difficult over time, this just gets better and better.

Quote:My 3 month break has reawakened my GD. I started back on PM a few days ago... hopefully the peace I once enjoyed will return.

Misty

I'm sure it will. I do hope the symptoms that caused you to stop taking it do not return.

B.

(23-04-2015, 10:33 PM)Misty0732 Wrote: [ -> ]Is this simply a different spot on the TG scale, or is it something else altogether? I sometimes think my desire to be female is nothing more than a sexual fetish, and that the relief I get from PM is due to the PM squashing my sexual desires (including the fetish). At other times I think that isn't the case because I am a *much* more likeable person when I'm taking PM.

Misty

I'm not sure. I believe the gender spectrum IS real and perhaps I am just a little further down the line ...who knows? I know for certain that using PM for 10 months followed by a hybrid plan with pharmaceutical E for over a year and now full HRT with Spiro, E and Finasteride for 3 months does nothing to relieve my gender dysphoria. I'm always thinking about what it would be like to be included in the female gender camp and every time someone misgenders me, it's like getting a needle prick in my heart.

As for sex and fetish arguments, neither resonate with me. Intercourse (or the attempt of) intensifies my dislike of my body to the point where I sometimes end up in the fetal position shaking and crying when it's time to perform. When we ARE intimate "sexually" it is all about her pleasure and very rarely involves penetration. I do what I can to please her or help her please herself and then we're done. I haven't had an orgasm in months and I could count the number of orgasms I've had in the last 3 years on a hand with a finger amputated. In fact, my last orgasm ever was mutually plan and completed in January. Never again! I'm just not interested in sex, pornography, masturbation or any such related fantasies at all. It just reminds me how inappropriately equipped I am. Sexual arousal has nothing whatsoever to do with me wanting to jump the gender fence.

Well, I was hoping that reawakening this thread would bring about further discussion of why our wives and girl friends have or have not been able to accept our transgender natures. The heading is "SO Acceptance" after all, not "Are You a Transsexual or an Autogynephile?".

Thank you, Kari, for your personal observations on the subject. I'm so pleased to read that your spouse is working with you to help resolve your gender issues. I think it's so important to have that kind of support where support is so hard to come by elsewhere.

If no one else in the world was accepting of my gender identity, and need to transition, having my wife's understanding and support would be enough for me to carry on. Fortunately, the world is coming around to recognizing the existence of this phenomenon and making room for us in their lives.

I'm looking forward to the day when I wake up in the morning without my first thought being related in one way or another to my gender. That will mark the end of my transition. I have a long way to go, but I'm very confident that I will achieve my goal. I really do have high hopes for you, as well.

Clara

Clara,

It wasn't my intention to go down the path of asking why the dysphoria is present in me or anyone else -- I apologize for that turn. My original question centers on generic make-up of cells -- what many in the biological sciences consider the definition of gender.

None the less, to get back on subject -- I assume that if I were to tell my wife that I was going through with transition that she would most likely agree to stay with me (especially if the alternative is divorce). It would be very painful for her, however, and would inevitably cause a lot of problems between her and her family.

So the issue for me is do I find the GD so unbearable that I am willing to take my family down that road, or can I manage the rest of my life as I have managed the last 56 years? My statements to Kari would seem to place my "need" at a lower level than hers or yours, and perhaps more aligned with byrony. As such I would think that my sacrifice (in not transitioning) would be less difficult than my wife would face were I to move ahead.

More specifically concerning my wife's acceptance... she knows about my GD, she knows I have been taking PM, and she certainly notices my breast growth. She accepts who I am and accepts that the GD is real. I know it scares her, however.

Misty

Thank you, Misty, for explaining your current situation.

I've often talked about transition as being a joint venture. That is, both I and my wife are transitioning together. Really, it can be no other way and hope to stay together on a solid footing. That's my opinion, anyway. I believe that's a central point in Leslie Fabian's book "My Husband is a Woman Now".

The other point I'd like to make is that transition is not an all of nothing proposition. If one's gender ID is a mix of male and female, i.e., one falls somewhere in the middle of the the gender spectrum, it's possible to find a perfectly comfortable place that straddles both the male and female identities. I know many cross dressers who have no intention or desire to transition. They satisfy all their feminine urges with an en femme outing once or twice a month.

That latter position was where I hoped I could find peace, but alas, it was not enough because becoming hormonally female did alter my mental and emotional makeup along the lines of a woman. In other words I stepped onto the 'slippery slope' that carried me much further down the path I was on.

I don't think my wife would have been at all comfortable with my transitioning all the way in those first formative months. But, the fact is, her thinking changed, too. Don't assume that your wife's viewpoint is fixed, anymore than yours is.

I know, it sounds like I'm trying to encourage you to take a path that may not be right for you. Sorry, that's not my intention. It's best to try to limit the risk that being transgender injects into your marriage anyway you can. Avoid transition, if possible, it's a very emotionally, and financially difficult course to set out on. I held it back for 66 years. It can be done if that's what you feel is in your best interest. At some point, however, if you are like me, as time goes on, your GD will grow to the where it can no longer be held in check. You'll know when that time comes, and if your wife has been a part of your journey all along, she will be in an excellent position to help you manage the crisis.

That's my thinking at this point in my own transition. No one wants to learn to swim by being thrown overboard with the only choice being to sink or swim.

Clara

I am in a similar situation as a number of others here I think. I have had some brief discussions with my wife although to some degree, she is trying to ignore it.

Her primary response is she loves me for me and not my gender. At the same time, at 10 or so years off retirement, she does not want me to put my employment in jeopardy and compromise our post-retirement lifestyle.

At present, I do not have a strong desire to cross dress in public and I am more repulsed by my masculinity than a desire to be feminine, so that is ok with me. The hardest thing for me will be that she has stipulated I keep my facial hair.

She also distrusts herbs etc, so she is insisting that I do this "properly" going down the HRT route under medical supervision. I have not mentioned to her being on WP and FG. Both she and my Dr think that PM is not sufficiently known and should be avoided. I am not sure I agree, but I will respect their wishes and go down the HRT route.

Misty's words above resonated. 'I know I "wish" I were female, but I can't say that I "am" female, nor that I even "should have been" female.'

On the X and the Y thing that was discussed above, from my lay interpretation of what I have read on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and some types of intersex, it seems to me that the X and Y just set up the initial hormone mix. After that, whether the stem cells differentiate into a uterus or prostate depends on that hormone mix. If researchers can work out how to make stem cells from differentiated cells for real (as opposed to the team that faked results last year), then maybe it will be possible to grow a uterus and ovaries that are genetically yours and implant them. The right hormone just need to be present when they are growing. (I might have this completely wrong!)

We have all just been born 30 years too early.