Breast Growth For Genetic Males

fuffing fuf fuff !!
now i am totally lost
can someone lend me their brains

Excellent questions CLara,

Would you like the short answer?, or the one that explains it in-detail?

More Chemisty! Details please.

(30-01-2014, 05:38 PM)C vous plait Wrote: [ -> ]More Chemisty! Details please.

Ditto that!

(30-01-2014, 05:49 PM)ClaraKay Wrote: [ -> ]

(30-01-2014, 05:38 PM)C vous plait Wrote: [ -> ]More Chemisty! Details please.

Ditto that!

But, translate for us dummies, Lotus (I'm speaking for myself, of course) LOL.

Clara

(30-01-2014, 04:41 PM)ClaraKay Wrote: [ -> ]This subject is very interesting, but I'm confused.

Aromatase is an enzyme that is needed to convert testosterone to estrogen in males. Which T is converted to which E? Is it free T that is converted to estradiol, or DHT?

About 90% of testosterone is produced by the testes; the remainder is produced by the adrenal glands. Non-protein bound testosterone is not constrained; however, only 2 percent of the testosterone that a man has, and 1 percent in a woman, is free or non-protein bound. In both men and woman, more than half of the total circulating testosterone is constrained by SHBG, which is sex hormone-binding globulin. The majority of the remaining testosterone is bound to albumin.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.



For the geeks
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...ool=pubmed
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1....2006-2203
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=134536051&page=3


To what extend are either Spearmint (which is anti-free T) or Pygeum (which is anti-DHT) going to complete with WP (a pro-aromatase herb whose purpose is to convert T to E)?
Your binding the DHT with Spearmint and Pygeum (preventing from becoming DHT,), the WP Converts what you do have available to be E.


Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?



http://chineseherbinfo.com/bai-shao-yao-...eony-root/ Big file! Careful!
descriptive-

I hope some one can set me straight on this because I'm planning to make a change in my program next week (currently PM + Spearmint) by adding Pygeum (an anti-5 alpha reductase).

And, Lisa Lou, if you read this...you wrote that you're planning to replace SP with Spearmint+WP, right? What is your reasoning behind choosing WP over, say, Pygeum?

Clara Kay

I'll start you off on that, short on time , I'll get back to ya!

(30-01-2014, 04:41 PM)ClaraKay Wrote: [ -> ]This subject is very interesting, but I'm confused.
I hope some one can set me straight on this because I'm planning to make a change in my program next week (currently PM + Spearmint) by adding Pygeum (an anti-5 alpha reductase).

Pygeum - pygeum extract is the most popular treatment for BPH. When compared with saw palmetto in a clinical trial, it was demonstrated that saw palmetto produced greater reduction of symptoms and was better tolerated. However, PAE may have greater effects on prostate secretion. By improving an underlying problem, PAE may improve sexual function. Pygeum clinical trials (mostly European) are encouraging, but more research is needed in the US.

Pygeum contains several compounds, including anti-inflammatories and enzymes that decrease testosterone, and follicle-stimulating hormones. Studies (see References) report that the positive effects of pygeum on the human body include normalization of glandular activity, increase in prostatic secretions and an increase in estrogen and antiestrogen. Pygeum has not been shown to reduce the size of the prostate gland or reverse the process of BPH. It is also not clear how pygeum compares to prescription medicines currently on the market.
Great article- don't knock it-
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5105750_pygeum...z2ruFbhaxp

Search 5-ar and you'll get so much on hair-loss check this one out-

Estrogen taken oraly has been shown to completely reverse male pattern baldness in transgender patients. However estrogen competes with and shuts down the male hormone Testosterone and causes feminization including breast growth and female pattern fat deposits.
http://www.follacure.com/t/estrogenB
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/sho...gen-in-Men

However, pygeum does not appear to reduce the size of the prostate gland or reverse the process of BPH. It is unclear how pygeum compares to the effectiveness or safety of other medical therapies, such as prescription drugs (e.g. alpha-adrenergic blockers or 5-alpha reductase inhibitors), surgical approaches, or other herbs/supplements such as saw palmetto. There is ongoing study in this area. Patients with urinary symptoms or BPH should speak with their healthcare professional about the various available treatment options.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygeum_(herbal_remedy)


Clara- I haven't taken Pygeum, so I can't give first hand experience other than what I found. But!, I like what It can do, I'm sure you've read all the side-effects and interactions and know the risks.


Btw, this was supposed to go with the first post:

Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-heal...94117.html

Thank you, Lotus. Just what I needed. I'm going to take some time to read everything you've referenced here.

Hugs,

Clara

at this rate i will have to change my program completely

seems everything i am taking is useless !!

on the other hand i defo got some boobie growth

(30-01-2014, 05:51 PM)ClaraKay Wrote: [ -> ]Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?

Only PM has the unique phytoestrogen (plant estrogen), miroestrol. Miroestrol is bio-similar to estriol, an estrogen (female hormone) that is much weaker than the body’s predominant estrogen, 17ß- estradiol. Miroestrol occupies the estrogen receptors more safely. If the estrogen level is high, miroestrol will compete with receptors weakening the effect of the hormones. If the estrogen level is low, miroestrol will exert its estrogenic effect of potentiation. PM also contains several other phytoestrogens including genistein, daidzein, hydroxymiroestrol and isomiroestrol.

http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_lib...n_2(1).htm


Peony Root - Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase (Aromatase - Converts testosterone to estrogens)

My opinion dear Clara is that peony will take that excess T and works to convert it into E, taking it with PM would enhance the capabilities. Abi's goal was to saturate the receptors, my goal as well, which in my opinion has worked. I also think PABA is also a great addition, PABA - Decreases breakdown of estrogen in your body so you have more free estrogen.

But you girls stick to your current programs, mine is a bit more radical and when you and others are ready I'd be happy to offer any assistance I can. I haven't offered much of my theory because it's just that, my theory!. If you girls would like to talk more theory instead research I'd be tickled, just let me know. I've tried to offer as much research as I can find on the things I've posted. Yes it's overwhelming, but if we're not committed 100% to this then it's a waist of time and money, imo. We need all the info we can find and then make an informed decision.

In more technical terms:

Conversion of blood androgens to estrogens in normal adult men and women:

The conversion ratio (ratio of concentrations of radioactivity of free product steroid [χ-PRO] and free precursor steroid [χ-PRE], both corrected for recoveries, after an infusion of radioactive precursor steroid) for androstenedione (precursor) to estrone (product) is 0.013 in males and 0.007 in females, and the conversion ratio for testosterone (precursor) to estradiol (product) is 0.0018 in males and 0.005 in females. The transfer constant, [ρ]BBAE1, for androstenedione conversion to estrone ([ρ]BBAE1 = per cent of infused androstenedione, precursor, converted to estrone, product, when infusion and measurement are both in blood) is 1.35% in males and 0.74% in females, and the transfer constant, [ρ]BBTE2, for testosterone conversion to estradiol is 0.39% in males and 0.15% in females
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC297476/