(06-11-2014, 05:39 PM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ] (06-11-2014, 01:40 AM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ]Janet@
Janet, what are your thoughts on pumpkin seed oil?, you have it in your program right?
Yes, I'm using it. Its more as something extra to keep my DHT at bay. Is it working ?, who can really tell. I have noticed a drop in chest hairs, and facial .
(06-11-2014, 06:41 PM)Janet doe Wrote: [ -> ] (06-11-2014, 05:39 PM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ] (06-11-2014, 01:40 AM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ]Janet@
Janet, what are your thoughts on pumpkin seed oil?, you have it in your program right?
Yes, I'm using it. Its more as something extra to keep my DHT at bay. Is it working ?, who can really tell. I have noticed a drop in chest hairs, and facial .
Cool, barring a blood test there's only a couple ways to gauge how effective it is, Facial hair is one of them, less aggression and competitiveness are others, more compassion and empathy on the flip side.
(06-11-2014, 07:13 PM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ] (06-11-2014, 06:41 PM)Janet doe Wrote: [ -> ] (06-11-2014, 05:39 PM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ] (06-11-2014, 01:40 AM)Lotus Wrote: [ -> ]Janet@
Janet, what are your thoughts on pumpkin seed oil?, you have it in your program right?
Yes, I'm using it. Its more as something extra to keep my DHT at bay. Is it working ?, who can really tell. I have noticed a drop in chest hairs, and facial .
Cool, barring a blood test there's only a couple ways to gauge how effective it is, Facial hair is one of them, less aggression and competitiveness are others, more compassion and empathy on the flip side.
I should also add I take the Pumpkin-seed oil along with WP and reishi
I took Black Cohosh for around 6 months. I could feel that I no longer had normal T levels, I basically felt like a wet dish rag and could sleep all day every day. Went to the Doctors for an unrelated thing, he took blood tests and because I had said I was curious how my hormone levels were he also ordered those. He called me at home and asked me to come in. When I did he looked at me and said, "well, your testosterone levels are in the basement, almost non existent".
I had been on a good breast growth spurt at that time. But the doc ordered me off the black cohosh and wanted to check me again in six weeks. Since I made that change and stopped the black cohosh (kept taking pm though) my breast growth slowed and seems to have halted. I had got up to a B cup too.
Started the Black Cohosh once again just this morning, hoping it will inspire new growth, along with the pm
(07-11-2014, 04:30 PM)ooBobbi Wrote: [ -> ]I took Black Cohosh for around 6 months. I could feel that I no longer had normal T levels, I basically felt like a wet dish rag and could sleep all day every day. Went to the Doctors for an unrelated thing, he took blood tests and because I had said I was curious how my hormone levels were he also ordered those. He called me at home and asked me to come in. When I did he looked at me and said, "well, your testosterone levels are in the basement, almost non existent".
I had been on a good breast growth spurt at that time. But the doc ordered me off the black cohosh and wanted to check me again in six weeks. Since I made that change and stopped the black cohosh (kept taking pm though) my breast growth slowed and seems to have halted. I had got up to a B cup too.
Started the Black Cohosh once again just this morning, hoping it will inspire new growth, along with the pm
Just the BC with the PM, or anything else ??
Mainly the PM is regular. I try to keep the PM flowing regularly without interruption. Off and on i will take fenugreek which really builds up the glands in the breasts. I am pretty certain it was fenugreek which connected my breasts to the rest of my body. I had never had sensations all through my whole body before, and now? Well now playing with my breasts can bring on orgasm by itself.
Off and on I also take saw palmetto, however the research on that is still contradictory. Female sites tend to say that it is good to lower testosterone levels, while other male sites say that it is good to raise T levels. My hair grows faster, thicker and stronger while on saw, so, I am not certain of that one still.
Off and on I also take the black cohosh. I take this less though because it really is an effective antiandrogen, big time, and you feel it. For me, it wipes me out really bad so i can't stay on that one for too long without breaks.
Breast grow has stalled though, and maybe even stopped. I have to do something to inspire new growth.
(07-11-2014, 04:52 PM)ooBobbi Wrote: [ -> ]Mainly the PM is regular. I try to keep the PM flowing regularly without interruption. Off and on i will take fenugreek which really builds up the glands in the breasts. I am pretty certain it was fenugreek which connected my breasts to the rest of my body. I had never had sensations all through my whole body before, and now? Well now playing with my breasts can bring on orgasm by itself.
Off and on I also take saw palmetto, however the research on that is still contradictory. Female sites tend to say that it is good to lower testosterone levels, while other male sites say that it is good to raise T levels. My hair grows faster, thicker and stronger while on saw, so, I am not certain of that one still.
Off and on I also take the black cohosh. I take this less though because it really is an effective antiandrogen, big time, and you feel it. For me, it wipes me out really bad so i can't stay on that one for too long without breaks.
Breast grow has stalled though, and maybe even stopped. I have to do something to inspire new growth.
From Lotus`s thread :
"Black Cohosh-The weak estrogen like effects of black cohosh
suppressed increased luteinizing hormone secretion in menopausal women, and this effect was specifically linked with a reduction in the incidence of hot flashes (Duker et al. 1991). Black cohosh extract has shown estrogenic effects within the body in several studies, but it does not elevate estrogen levels in the blood. Black cohosh extract appears to bind to estrogen receptors in order to mimic the hormonal effects of the weak estrogen, estriol."
I had originally stayed away from BC because of its weak estrogen like effects ( i did not want it to compete with my PM ) but, If I read into it a little more : In men, LH is also produced in the pituitary gland. LH binds to receptors in certain cells in the testes called Leydig cells. This leads to the release of testosterone, a hormone that is necessary for producing sperm cells. So I would think the BC is shutting the tests down, by suppressing the LH.
Maybe worth while cycling it in and out.
Exp Mol Pathol. 2014 Jun;96(3):279-83.
Mechanism of hepatotoxicity due to black cohosh (Cimicifuga racemosa): histological, immunohistochemical and electron microscopy analysis of two liver biopsies with clinical correlation.
Enbom ET, Le MD, Oesterich L, Rutgers J, French SW.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Consumption of herbal supplements in the developed world remains high. Cimicifuga racemosa (C. racemosa) extract, or black cohosh, is widely used as a hormone replacing and an anti-inflammatory agent, and has been shown to cause idiosyncratic hepatitis. The mechanism of acute liver injury in those cases is unclear. To date, hepatotoxic effects of C. racemosa have been studied mostly in vitro and in animal models. Data on human tissue is extremely limited, and mostly confined to histological findings of explanted livers. METHODS: We evaluated clinical data and examined surgical diagnostic liver biopsy specimens obtained from two female patients, who developed acute submassive liver necrosis, following consumption of C. racemosa. Both patients presented with acute elevation of liver enzymes, cholestasis, absence of reactivity to hepatitis A, B and C antibodies, and weak non-specific positivity for autoimmune serological markers. Initial histological interpretation of the biopsies, with focus on hepatic parenchyma and portal tracts, was done by light microscopy, followed by special stain series and immunohistochemical studies, including Cam 5.2, AE1/AE3, reticulin, α-actin, sirius red, and PAS with diastase. Areas of prominent lymphocytic infiltration of the periportal liver plate, observed microscopically, were further evaluated by electron microscopy (EM). 4HNE adduction study, an immunofluorescent assay, was performed to detect products of the oxidative damage and their localization in the liver parenchyma. RESULTS: Oxidative damage was evident by accumulation of 4HNE protein adducts in the cytoplasm of hepatocytes, secondary lysosomes and macrophages. We hypothesize that the adducted proteins, accumulated in the liver parenchyma, serve as autoantigens, which provoke an autoimmune response, and cause migration of lymphocytes to the affected regions. The formation of immunological synapses between hepatocytes and lymphocytes, predominantly T-lymphocytes, is demonstrated by electron microscopy. The autoimmune response induces piecemeal, or troxis necrosis of hepatocytes, a well described biological phenomenon, where lymphocytes gradually remove hepatocytes in a piecemeal fashion, slowly consuming them and leaving fragments of liver cells, or nubbins of anuclear cytoplasm of liver cell, at the interface between lymphocytes and hepatocytes. CONCLUSION: The pattern of pathological injury of liver cells in both patients, following consumption of black cohosh, is identical to troxis necrosis, seen during autoimmune hepatitis. Recognition of the possibility of the acute hepatic injury by the herbal supplement black cohosh is essential for early accurate diagnosis, and timely patient management.
PMID: 24657312
Yup, I had read that same article, and others, including this one...
In the past three years, four papers or letters have been published purporting to demonstrate a link between the use of black cohosh ingestion and subsequent liver injury. The first publication was from Australia and described six patients with evidence of severe hepatitis linked to taking a range of herbal products.1 Two of these patients were taking black cohosh, although one also was taking other herbs, including skullcap, an herb that can be substituted by Teucrium species, a known hepatotoxic genus.2 The one case attributed to black cohosh alone (case 1) truly was dramatic. Of the cases reported, the most serious illness occurred in a 47-year-old woman taking black cohosh for menopausal symptoms. She required liver transplantation, even though, according to the publication, the patient had been taking the black cohosh for just one week. Histological examination of her liver confirmed severe hepatitis and early fibrosis. The patient did not exhibit eosinophilia and had no signs of any systemic disturbance. Serology for hepatitis A, B and C was negative, but rechallenge with the herb was not performed "for ethical reasons." The dose of black cohosh taken was not specified.
The second publication, also from Australia, described a 52-year-old woman with acute liver failure (case 2).3 She had been taking an herbal formula containing 1:1 liquid extracts prescribed by a pharmacist. Black cohosh 1:1 was 10 percent of the mixture and the daily dose of the combination was 7.5 mL twice a day. The patient underwent successful liver transplantation. Although the authors stated, "Extensive investigation excluded other recognized causes of liver failure," they provided no details of what these investigations were. Analysis was said to confirm the presence of golden seal, black cohosh and ginkgo in the herbal mixture. Other stated ingredients were ground ivy and oats seed.
The third and fourth publications detail single case reports from the U.S. One report described the development of autoimmune hepatitis, which the authors claim was triggered by the use of black cohosh (case 3).4 A 57-year-old diabetic woman presented with a two-week history of lethargy and fatigue. Her medications (all of which had been used for more than two years) included labetalol, fosinopril, verapamil, metformin, aspirin and insulin. Three weeks before presentation, the patient began taking black cohosh tablets (unknown brand or dose) for hot flashes. Drug-induced autoimmune hepatitis, attributed to the black cohosh, was diagnosed. Tests for hepatitis A, B and C were negative.
The most recent case report (case 4) was that of a 50-year-old woman suffering from acute-onset jaundice.5 The provisional diagnosis was autoimmune hepatitis, since tests for hepatitis A, B and C, cytomegalovirus and Epstein-Barr virus all were negative. In the five months prior to the onset of jaundice, the patient was taking black cohosh (500 mg daily) for menopausal symptoms and was not on any other medications.
The case reports linking black cohosh to liver injury have some serious flaws. In particular, for all cases, the presence of black cohosh in the products being consumed was not definitely established. Moreover, in most cases the name of the product and the dosage taken were not specified. Certainly for case 2, there is the assertion that black cohosh was identified in the herbal mixture, but no details of the results or how this was done are provided. The fact that two herbs in the mixture could not be identified makes any argument for the involvement of black cohosh in case 2 fundamentally flawed.
The features of case 1 are baffling. Since the problem developed after one week of taking black cohosh, this would have to be a hypersensitivity reaction if the herb truly was the cause. Yet the patient lacked any features of a hypersensitivity reaction (rash, fever, systemic reaction, eosinophilia). In fact, eosinophilia specifically was stated to be absent. Furthermore, the explant liver showed signs of early fibrosis, a phenomenon that could develop only after months of exposure to the causative agent. Clearly, on the evidence provided, one week of black cohosh is the least likely cause of this patient's liver damage.
For case 3, the authors claimed none of the drugs the patient was taking had been linked to autoimmune hepatitis. Yet a simple search revealed several cases for labetalol in which this drug might have indeed caused an idiosyncratic autoimmune hepatitis, including one overview report of 11 cases from the FDA.14,15,16
In case 4, the authors justify their identification of black cohosh as the cause of the patient's liver injury on the basis of the two flawed Australian publications. In their discussion, they attribute to black cohosh the presence of hepatotoxic alkaloids and salicylates. Such attributions are nonsensical, unsupported by the literature17 and, above all, cast doubt on the credibility and academic diligence of their overall analysis of the case.
Additional problems with the four cases include the lack of positive identification of black cohosh as the cause by either a rechallenge or a lymphocyte stimulation test. While the latter can give false negatives, if positive, it would have provided more conclusive evidence of any link to black cohosh use. But the likelihood is that most of the authors involved never actually saw what the patients were taking (as evidenced by the appalling lack of product and dosage information) and therefore would have been unable to undertake such tests.
The demographics of patients with non-A non-B (idiopathic) hepatitis closely match those of the black cohosh user (female, age 40-50). Hence, the most likely and rational explanation of the cases described is that they are idiopathic hepatitis mistakenly attributed to black cohosh because of the common use of this herb. Once one mistaken case is described in the literature - however poor its quality - others likely will follow in a process akin to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Hopefully, the regulators will not be motivated to act on such poor-quality case reports. The association of black cohosh and DILI remains unproven based on the current evidence.