Hello all,
I figure it would be best to give this its own thread. I was getting the feeling Jamie Lee's thread was getting hijacked.
I've posted the NBE FAQ I wrote on sfem's blog. Here's the link and I also added to my signature block.
http://sfemblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/29...tic-males/
There is a question I would like to add, but I'm unsure of what to write exactly since I have no personal dealing with it.
Here's the question:
I’ve been taking some NBE herbs and I don’t think they are working out for me. I want to switch to a new herb, but I’m wondering about clearing out my system. Is this necessary? And if so, what I should take to facilitate this?
I know some members use milk thistle to help facilitate this, but other than that, I'm not sure what else to write.
Milk Thistle plus a LOT of water, for at least a week seems to be the norm.
I've been doing this for 3 and a half weeks, since it was over a year without much of a break.
Nice job on the FAQ, btw!
This is another open-ended one, IMO.
By definition the liver exists to rid the body of unwanted materials/toxins and doesn't need any help ( assuming that is is healthy). Stopping the intake of 'toxins', in our case female-effect herbs, gives it a chance to complete the job and clearly water helps to flush stuff through. Whether Milk Thistle does anything except as an anecdotal placebo effect, I personally find debatable tending towards doubtful.
From my understanding, milk thistle contains silymarin and silibinin which protect the liver from damage. I know it can exacerbate gall bladder problems because it seems to cause the release of bile. I'm not entirely sure it "cleanses" the liver. Another supplement that can protect the liver is N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) which can actually reverse liver damage from an acetaminophen overdose if given soon enough. To me, it makes more sense to continuously take milk thistle and NAC which I've been doing for many years. I only started NBE in August 2012.
Milk Thistle. This is one of those pseudoscience things that won't go away. To get a layman's review of the deal with your liver and the whole cleanse thing, try
http://www.pbiv.com/articles/milkthistle.html
It gives a pretty good set of answers to the common questions and misconceptions about the liver.
First, let me say that the faq as it stands is a great start. It is a good collection of common questions and has answers for all of them. I'm sure lots of us have a few thoughts on some of the questions and answers and it is good of flame to volunteer to coordinate the input and maintain the faq document. I also think the document may be a lot easier to maintain and review if we make each question its own post on the blog. Editing, updating, or enhancing a question or its answer won't require changing the entire document and will make it a lot easier to identify updates for readers. That blog won't be used for anything else, I created it purely to hold this stuff. Thoughts?
This thread is probably a good place for us to hash out some of these questions, rather than people sending individual feedback to flame, creating a lot of work for flame. So here is my take on some of the questions in the faq, with suggestions for content enhancements. Ones I don't give thoughts on I like as they are, or have no knowledge/experience of, or have no value to add. If there are additional topics, or people who feel they have lots to contribute to a particular question, I am perfectly happy to add them as authors to the blog, and they can post/maintain those topics.
I won't repeat the posted q&a, but will simply give some thoughts which I believe I can help improve the faq. These are my views and I expect they can be improved upon as well.
1. The stronger the phytoestrogen, the faster the results has been my experience. PM works faster than things like FG, RC, etc. with respect to complete breast development. Pharmaceuticals are even faster. Implants are not development, but really just another kind of breast form. I would hope no-one can be confused into thinking getting implants would cause any actual breast development, but you never know.
3. First signs may be noticing some accumulation of fatty tissue on the chest. For me, the first sign something was happening was itchy nipples. That happened within 2 weeks. The fat accumulation happened later for me. I also personally don't think fat redistribution is a good term for us. It implies things physically move which they don't. I prefer to call it changes in body fat distribution or accumulation.
4. I'm thinking the point at which you find the little bump behind the nipples, or first notice a more solid feeling mass around the nipples is the beginning of female breast development, and might be the point of no return for tissue you will be stuck with if you change your mind. If point of no return means loss of male function, I think for most that happens quite a bit further on than the start of duct/nodule building behind the nipples. For some, male function doesn't appear to be completely lost at all. The same can be said for male appendage size.
7. Side effects do vary quite a bit. Side effects I have seen described may include headaches, muscle aches, back pain, upset stomach, diarrhea, body odour changes, and minor blood pressure changes. It really depends on the individual, which herbs or herb mix they are taking in what doses, and a lot more factors than we can take into account in this faq.
8. Boy, I don't like the term brain rewiring. It implies permanent changes regardless of whether we continue the herbs or not, and I just don't believe that happens. I have gone cold turkey enough times to tell you that when you go off the herbs long enough, your old self will come back. I know there is a mental effect from the phytoestrogens. I just don't think it is a rewiring or permanent change. I would rather see this called something like mental changes, or emotional changes or adjustments, or perspective change. The changes I know of include aggression reduction, decrease in anxiety, increase in patience (for everything but boobies!), and decreased desire to cross-dress or obsess about or focus on gender or sex for some. Whether it promotes or reduces a desire to transition is questionable in my mind. I think it may helps to remove some of the anxiety, impatience, and obsession which may make it harder for a person to decide how they feel about transitioning, but I don't it makes anyone want to transition. It may well simply be an alternative to transitioning for those who want to feel more female, but don't necessarily want to be genitally female.
9. Don't some folks cycle or modulate their intake using other patterns than the female monthly cycle? I thought the primary benefit of cycling was to cause a change in ER activity since for many of us, that is when a growth spurt seems to happen. Nobody believes our bodies are similar enough to female bodies to actually be affected by the same frequency of hormonal changes, do they? The female body is a lot more complex than just whether and when ER receptors are activated. Choosing a monthly pattern is probably as good as any other pattern, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the timing of the much greater complexity of the female body has much to do with growing boobs on male bodies. Our glands and organs probably negate much of what affects female monthly timing. At the least not having the ovaries shuffling eggs along probably changes the cycle.
10. I think we need to have a links post in the blog to link to sites we believe present these kinds of topics. Estrogen dominance is a theory which has a lot of controversy, and not much actual science I've ever seen. Almost all of the sites I have seen on this topic, usually end up referring back to John Lee as the sole rock this theory balances on. If there is good peer-reviewed science available on this, I'd be interested to see it.
13. Same comment about fat redistribution as above. In addition to the changes you noted, the other noticeable change a lot of people report fairly early in their NBE is softer skin.
16. A comment here that trying wearing forms or even something stuffed into a sports bra and seeing how you do at hiding them is a good way for a newbie to explore how he really feels about being noticed for having breasts.
21. It is worth noting here that underage posters (definition varies by country) may get less response or guarded responses simply because a forum like this by its nature does not have the ability to make recommendations that take the whole recipient into account. We can only respond to what we are made aware of. Very often people present less than the whole situation when seeking advice on socially-discouraged topics. The aspect of this that affects young people is the moral and legal liability of the advice givers who usually acknowledge the impact that life experience has on the ability of the recipient to fully evaluate the implications of the advice given. In other words, the young are viewed to some extent as very probably not mature or experienced enough to be doing this without help from real-life people who know them and preferably are trained in this professionally.
23. Isn't this really just a form of cycling? Does it need a separate q&a or should it be part of the answer to #9?
24. What is the "chairs" thing? Typo...
Awesome start flame! Let's rock this thing.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]First, let me say that the faq as it stands is a great start. It is a good collection of common questions and has answers for all of them. I'm sure lots of us have a few thoughts on some of the questions and answers and it is good of flame to volunteer to coordinate the input and maintain the faq document. I also think the document may be a lot easier to maintain and review if we make each question its own post on the blog. Editing, updating, or enhancing a question or its answer won't require changing the entire document and will make it a lot easier to identify updates for readers. That blog won't be used for anything else, I created it purely to hold this stuff. Thoughts?
Maybe the FAQ can reference additional information should the newcomer want to learn more information about a particular NBE topic?
For example, with the side-effects question we could have a few common side-effects, and then list links to entries that go into more detail on this matter. I think the FAQ should function as a sort of NBE 101 for newcomers: basic information should be provided to make it easier to get a general overview, but then having links in which members can post elaborate entries that are separate from the FAQ.
Here's an example of the layout if I'm not making sense.
Question:
10. What is estrogen dominance?
FAQ Answer:
The term estrogen dominance is used to describes physical symptoms that arise because the body’s level of estrogen is currently too high.
More detailed answer:
Click on these links to learn more about individuals' experience with estrogen dominance.
sfem's entry
Monika's entry
etc.
Using this layout I think would make it easy for newcomers to learn more about what they want to know about NBE without getting bogged down with having to skip over matters they're not interested in. For instance, some members are very concerned about maintaining functionality, while others are not.
Sfem, I corrected the "chair" typo and added the bit about wearing a sports bra with breast forms. I'm going to need more time though to fully review your post.
Having links for reference would be good, but I am thinking they would work best if we do separate the Q&A into one post for each Q. Otherwise, the FAQ itself becomes rather unwieldy and maintaining it gets harder.
I also think for the sake of liability, we need to make sure we do not present anything as a fact unless there is solid reference to recognized authorities who can be held accountable if there is something inaccurate which turns out to be a serious problem for someone. Disclaimers are fine for this. Perhaps a standard disclaimer can be appended to every post which discusses ideas which aren't generally accepted. Something like the warning thing I put on the post about PM dosing, but maybe better written than what I wrote.
Separating the Q&A into multiple posts also means that people reading it don't taint one answer with their opinion of another that they happen to disagree with. Each item then stands on its own merits and if one turns out to be incorrect or bad, it doesn't make everything else suspect by association. It also conveniently solves the problem of making it simple for people to skip topics they aren't interested in.
A post format could be:
Post subject: Question we are answering
Post body:
Answer text
References section
Disclaimer if applicable
I will look at making author bios automatic. I know wordpress can do it. Then a bio can be entered/updated in one place for anyone who wants to do one.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]This thread is probably a good place for us to hash out some of these questions, rather than people sending individual feedback to flame, creating a lot of work for flame. So here is my take on some of the questions in the faq, with suggestions for content enhancements. Ones I don't give thoughts on I like as they are, or have no knowledge/experience of, or have no value to add. If there are additional topics, or people who feel they have lots to contribute to a particular question, I am perfectly happy to add them as authors to the blog, and they can post/maintain those topics.
1. The stronger the phytoestrogen, the faster the results has been my experience. PM works faster than things like FG, RC, etc. with respect to complete breast development. Pharmaceuticals are even faster.
I like this. I agree it should be emphasized that not all herbs are created equal in terms of promoting breast development.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]Implants are not development, but really just another kind of breast form. I would hope no-one can be confused into thinking getting implants would cause any actual breast development, but you never know.
When I mentioned breast implants I assumed everyone is aware they're fake in terms of breast tissue. I'm not sure how else to reword this.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]3. First signs may be noticing some accumulation of fatty tissue on the chest. For me, the first sign something was happening was itchy nipples. That happened within 2 weeks. The fat accumulation happened later for me. I also personally don't think fat redistribution is a good term for us. It implies things physically move which they don't. I prefer to call it changes in body fat distribution or accumulation.
I think the usage of fat redistribution resembles the usage of breast implants. Taken literally, I agree both terms can be confusing if not outright misleading. If this is a major issue, I think clarification is in order, otherwise it can be addressed if any newcomers is uncertain about such terms.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]4. I'm thinking the point at which you find the little bump behind the nipples, or first notice a more solid feeling mass around the nipples is the beginning of female breast development, and might be the point of no return for tissue you will be stuck with if you change your mind. If point of no return means loss of male function, I think for most that happens quite a bit further on than the start of duct/nodule building behind the nipples. For some, male function doesn't appear to be completely lost at all. The same can be said for male appendage size.
I don't remember if I experienced a correlation between developing breast bumps and losing functionality. I only recall at some point it occurred to me my sex drive was diminishing.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]7. Side effects do vary quite a bit. Side effects I have seen described may include headaches, muscle aches, back pain, upset stomach, diarrhea, body odour changes, and minor blood pressure changes. It really depends on the individual, which herbs or herb mix they are taking in what doses, and a lot more factors than we can take into account in this faq.
Like with a lot of other aspects of NBE, I agree side-effects really depends on the individual.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]8. Boy, I don't like the term brain rewiring. It implies permanent changes regardless of whether we continue the herbs or not, and I just don't believe that happens. I have gone cold turkey enough times to tell you that when you go off the herbs long enough, your old self will come back. I know there is a mental effect from the phytoestrogens. I just don't think it is a rewiring or permanent change. I would rather see this called something like mental changes, or emotional changes or adjustments, or perspective change. The changes I know of include aggression reduction, decrease in anxiety, increase in patience (for everything but boobies!), and decreased desire to cross-dress or obsess about or focus on gender or sex for some. Whether it promotes or reduces a desire to transition is questionable in my mind. I think it may helps to remove some of the anxiety, impatience, and obsession which may make it harder for a person to decide how they feel about transitioning, but I don't it makes anyone want to transition. It may well simply be an alternative to transitioning for those who want to feel more female, but don't necessarily want to be genitally female.
The thought of losing the brain rewiring is unsettling to me. In a strange way, such rewiring feels less genuine knowing it'll go away after I stop taking pm. Simply put, I don't want to go back to the pre-NBE mindset.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]9. Don't some folks cycle or modulate their intake using other patterns than the female monthly cycle? I thought the primary benefit of cycling was to cause a change in ER activity since for many of us, that is when a growth spurt seems to happen. Nobody believes our bodies are similar enough to female bodies to actually be affected by the same frequency of hormonal changes, do they? The female body is a lot more complex than just whether and when ER receptors are activated. Choosing a monthly pattern is probably as good as any other pattern, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest the timing of the much greater complexity of the female body has much to do with growing boobs on male bodies. Our glands and organs probably negate much of what affects female monthly timing. At the least not having the ovaries shuffling eggs along probably changes the cycle.
I haven't tried to setup my NBE regime to have highs and lows of estrogen that resembles something like the female monthly cycle. I think this question is fairly common amongst newcomers, hence why I included it in the FAQ. Perhaps someone with more experience in this matter would share their opinions?
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]10. I think we need to have a links post in the blog to link to sites we believe present these kinds of topics. Estrogen dominance is a theory which has a lot of controversy, and not much actual science I've ever seen. Almost all of the sites I have seen on this topic, usually end up referring back to John Lee as the sole rock this theory balances on. If there is good peer-reviewed science available on this, I'd be interested to see it.
I agree. The more documentation we have for NBE, the better.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]23. Isn't this really just a form of cycling? Does it need a separate q&a or should it be part of the answer to #9?
I see cycling as about mimicking the female cycle, while the high/low plan does not. I might be splitting hairs here, but that was why I kept them separate. I'm willing to consolidate them though.
(30-04-2013, 04:31 PM)sfem Wrote: [ -> ]24. What is the "chairs" thing? Typo...
In my defense, it was kind of late when I was originally writing the FAQ.
quote='sfem' pid='73636' dateline='1367335911']
Awesome start flame! Let's rock this thing.[/quote]
Should we try to set a goal with this FAQ, such as adding or improving 2 or 3 questions a week? I think if there's a major discussion that arises, surely that would be a good opportunity to bring it up in the FAQ.
This is great discussion. I was kind of hoping more folks who are knowledgeable would jump in. Anybody who is or was cycling want to take on the cycling question and do up a quick writeup on it? How about any suggestions for additional questions or meat for the answers we have so far? What does everyone think about the idea of one topic per post, versus a single post with a long list of questions and answers?