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Nicotine and estrogen

#1

Hi everybody, back in October I was hospitalized with a pulmonary embolism for which there seemed to be no explanation. I am 24 years old and in great health. After recovering began to do a little research myself. I found that its not uncommon for women who smoke to be at a greater risk for blood clots, and one article I read by a doctor said that he often advises against prescribing estrogen supplements to women who smoke until they can significantly reduce or stop nicotine intake. Now I don't smoke but I do use Copenhagen daily, an old habit from playing ball. I was interested to know if anybody has heard or read if these risks can also be associated with mixing phytoestrogens with nicotine in men as well. It's hard to say if that is what caused the embolism for me, but the doctors have no answers so for now I have discontinued PM until I quit the Copenhagen. Thanks for any and all input!
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#2

I've not HEARD of other such experiences, but that doesn't mean they aren't real. It just means the sample data is too small.

So I think it's wise for you to discontinue the PM until you can conquer your addiction... Sorry Sad
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#3

Hm, not sure about how it affects men, although I think it is simply high estrogen mixed with smoking/nicotine of any sort that causes an increase in the risk for blood clots (for whatever reason, I've never really looked into it myself).

I'm pretty sure I've got a blood clot in my right calf. It actually prevents me from being able to properly exhaust my calf muscles when I'm at the gym. Sad Stretching my leg at all puts me in intense pain, and sometimes I'll get pain randomly that has me limping for half the day. I will still continue to smoke my 1-3 cigs a day (since that's not really enough to make a huge difference) and will also continue to use estrogenic herbs for my NBE. Probably not the smartest decision. :/

I'm considering starting an aspirin regimen in the spring when things start to warm up (I've tried it before in the winter, but it made me too anemic and I couldn't get warm no matter what). So maybe you could try that along with cutting back on your nicotine habit. Although with a previous history of clots, especially at such an early age, you should consider quitting altogether and starting a low-dose herbal program (PM is definitely NOT recommended for those prone to clots!)

I hope quitting doesn't end up being too hard for you. Sad I know it's pretty rough; I've quit smoking twice before! Haha! Good luck with everything, and I hope your health gets back on track!Wink
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#4

Oddly enough I have no trouble at all quitting, I just do it to help alleviate stress so hopefully I can drop it ASAP as I have several times before. I also have no family history of clots so I'm thinking it was just way too much intake on both. I was at 3000mg daily of PM and almost 3/4 can of Copenhagen. I also read that nicotine can actually reduce the effects of estrogen so it would be counterproductive even if it weren't a health risk, which is probably why I had to take such a large dose of PM to begin with. It's definitely time for the Copenhagen to go regardless.
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#5

(04-01-2013, 04:39 AM)Doll Wrote:  Hm, not sure about how it affects men, although I think it is simply high estrogen mixed with smoking/nicotine of any sort that causes an increase in the risk for blood clots (for whatever reason, I've never really looked into it myself).

I'm pretty sure I've got a blood clot in my right calf. It actually prevents me from being able to properly exhaust my calf muscles when I'm at the gym. Sad Stretching my leg at all puts me in intense pain, and sometimes I'll get pain randomly that has me limping for half the day. I will still continue to smoke my 1-3 cigs a day (since that's not really enough to make a huge difference) and will also continue to use estrogenic herbs for my NBE. Probably not the smartest decision. :/

I'm considering starting an aspirin regimen in the spring when things start to warm up (I've tried it before in the winter, but it made me too anemic and I couldn't get warm no matter what). So maybe you could try that along with cutting back on your nicotine habit. Although with a previous history of clots, especially at such an early age, you should consider quitting altogether and starting a low-dose herbal program (PM is definitely NOT recommended for those prone to clots!)

I hope quitting doesn't end up being too hard for you. Sad I know it's pretty rough; I've quit smoking twice before! Haha! Good luck with everything, and I hope your health gets back on track!Wink

Like you I enjoy 1-5 cigs per day and one thong I had when on 1000mg pm was more visible vein so Im sure too much is bad for me now Im using 500mg and when I finish Im using other brand I also use a circulation supplement right now butchers broombut have tried a few veins normal now mist have just caused them to swell a little before.
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#6

[WARNING: As a health care professional, I am EXTREMELY biased against ALL nicotine use. The following is representative of my bias on the subject. If that will offend you, read no further. I'm posting it to help add information to the topic of nicotine and phytoestrogen use.]

It amazes me that anyone using nicotine products considers themselves in great health, but to each his own. Even a cursory search for the effects and side effects of nicotine use yields some pretty scary stuff:

It is a highly addictive, psychoactive drug that crosses the blood brain barrier in 10 to 20 seconds after inhalation (smoking.) I would imagine it is similar with chewing.

It is highly toxic, more toxic than other alkaloids such as cocaine!!!. From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine):
Quote:The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 30–60 mg (0.5–1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans.[6][70] Nicotine therefore has a high toxicity in comparison to many other alkaloids such as cocaine, which has an LD50 of 95.1 mg/kg when administered to mice. It is unlikely that a person would overdose on nicotine through smoking alone, although overdose can occur through combined use of nicotine patches or nicotine gum and cigarettes at the same time.[7] Spilling a high concentration of nicotine onto the skin can cause intoxication or even death, since nicotine readily passes into the bloodstream following dermal contact.[71]

In the same article the side effects are listed as:
Quote:Nicotine increases blood pressure and heart rate in humans.[57] Nicotine can stimulate abnormal proliferation of vascular endothelial cells, similar to that seen in atherosclerosis.[58] Nicotine induces potentially atherogenic genes in human coronary artery endothelial cells.[59] Nicotine could cause microvascular injury through its action on nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChRs),[60] however other mechanisms are also likely at play.
A study on rats showed that nicotine exposure abolishes the beneficial and protective effects of estrogen on the hippocampus,[61] an estrogen-sensitive region of the brain involved in memory formation and retention.

In an article on drugs.com another of the hematological side effects is (http://www.drugs.com/sfx/nicotine-side-effects.html):
Quote:Hematologic
Hematologic side effects have included increases in platelet aggregation and enhanced thrombus formation.

On the drugs.com website the list of nasty side effects is long and includes most of the body systems. And that's not even considering the tumor growth promoting aspects of nicotine.

I think it is HIGHLY likely that the OP's nicotine use contributed to his embolic event. As I said in previous posts, he dodged a bullet that time and hopefully will take that incident as a wake-up call. Anyone taking exogenous estrogen and continuing to use nicotine is basically playing russian roulette, in my opinion.

As to the OP's question about whether phytoestrogen use in combination with nicotine use has been noted in men, very little research (none?) regarding phytoestrogen use, especially to induce feminization, has been done in men. I have read nothing that looked at risk factors such as nicotine use in combination with phytoestrogens. Nicotine in combination with phytoestrogens may or may not have the same risks as estrogen in combination with nicotine. No one knows. I know surgeons that refuse to do non-emergent surgery on smokers if they have not stopped smoking for at least 4 weeks prior to surgery because of delayed healing time and poor outcomes overall for smokers.

I have an early patient this morning so it's probably just as well I stop there. Hope this helps.
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#7

Yeah girls... and Blackhawk... I've gotta say I'm surprised you can seriously think ANY nicotine use at all is "not really enough to make a huge difference".

We're all smarter than that here. At least I'd hope so. It really REALLY doesn't take much nicotine at all as Chris pointed out.

I wish all of you the best of luck in conquering your addictions... And really hope you all take your warning signs seriously before you end up with even worse.
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#8

Yh I guess I don't use smoke filters I started smoking marijuana young so I really enjoy occasional smoke rather than got to but I only have a maximum of 5 when on night shift/ night out otherwise just one before bed I also heard for women quit before 30 and you have no more chance of death than non smoker I got a few years to enjoy on that.
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#9

Only comment: y e e e u c h h h !

B.
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#10

I'm not advocating consuming nicotine, but certainly the majority of women (genetic and trans) who use tobacco do not get clots. Of those women who do have a problem with blood clots, I wonder how many smoke? Estrogen itself is a risk factor for blood clots, but then so is T, at least in the form of Androgel.

I can certainly understand the addictive nature of nicotine. Nicotine stimulates through the release of dopamine (I learned this while researching depression) which makes a person feel good. It also explains the use of Zyban/Wellbutrin/bupropion as a cessation aid. I hope those who wish to quit find a way to succeed.

Blackhawk, you're lucky you survived your clot. Good luck in the future, and be careful. Given the history of the clot, you might ask the doctor about an aspirin regimen, if you're not on one already, before trying PM again.
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