[Popcangirl]

So I had significant growth while taking 1650-3300 mg of pm capsules and 3 mg licorice extract. 

Do not do this!!! You are putting yourself at risk of blood clotting, stroke, etc.

I'm not taking any supplements now but am researching topical options now, anything to bypass the liver on the first pass.

I have started using the Swiss Botany PM serum these past 4 weeks. My nipples are sensitive and my nipples are constantly poking out again. It's good to have this feeling again with much less risk.

Right now I'm having trouble finding the extract ratio of PM serum compared to capsule powder.

I'm also having difficulty figuring out how much miroestrol, deoxymiroestol, and puerarin is in the serum.

I've seen discussions but nothing authoritative that 500 mg of PM powder is equivalent to 0.16 mg of estradiol. This seems too high but maybe not.

I've heard of mtf folks taking 2-8 mg estradiol for transitioning and that about 5% of the estrogen even makes it to the bloodstream before the liver gets it. That means they are getting 0.1-0.4 mg of estradiol daily in their bloodstream.

Seems suspicious that 500 mg of PM equals 0.16 mg. Perhaps they meant 0.16 mcg (micrograms). Or if it is 0.16 mg, this would still be 12.5 times less than the lowest dose of estradiol for transitioning (2mg). So 6,250 mg PM would be equivalent to 2mg of estradiol.

If 500 mg of PM is equivalent to 0.16mg of estradiol then at my 3300 mg dose I was getting 1.056 mg estradiol equivalent. If this is true I think I would have to take 13,200 mg (13.2 grams) daily to match mtf estradiol dose of 4mg daily.

There has got to be a better topical option. 

I'm very curious how much miroestrol can pass through the skin to the bloodstream.

I see that with regards to estradiol the dose equivalent of 1mg oral is 0.05 mg transdermal. In other, words you need 1/20 less for similar effect.

I wonder if PM serum might be 20 times more potent when absorbed through the skin versus taken orally.

Assuming 500 mg of dried PM equals 0.16 mg equivalent of estradiol and that the equivalent amount of serum is absorbed through the skin at a rate of 5%, 10%, 25%, or 50% then in order to reach a minimal mtf dose equivalent of 2mg oral estradiol then you would need 6250 mg (5%), 3125 mg (10%), 1250mg  (25%), 625 mg (50%) of PM serum.

So the trick is to find out what the extraction ratio from raw PM powder to serum is AND what the absorption rate is for Miroestrol and Deoxymiroestrol.

[Shirazmn]

PM capsules may have different dosages. What I keep seeing around, for pure PM, is 500mg caps from a few different retailers. When I read some 50 at the end of the dosage I always suspect that it's some concentrate or extract. In that case be careful because, obviously, concentrates are supposed to me many times more powerful than raw powder. (My experience says that there isn't a direct "concentration to power" relationship, but still..).

When a genetic males takes any estrogen there is always a risk of blood cloths. Many TG people are given substances to thin their blood to avoid that. Some take small doses of aspirin, that is a blood thinner. Licorice has a strong effect on the blood and it raises pressure. It has almost no hormonal effect and I have no idea of why people keep taking it while on PM. I like the taste of pure dark licorice sweets, but that's a treat an not medication.

Somewhere on this forum I read that 1000mg of raw PM extract (Ainterol's for example) have the same estrogenic power of trassexual's HRT. A few PM users took up to 3000 mg/day (3 times the advised dosage) and their results seem to confirm the assumption. Plus, PM has miroestrol that acts on the milk ducts (like FG) so it pumps breast tissue more than regular HRT (at comparable dosage).

The real problem with herbals is that doctors can't do their maths about them. Different strands and brands have different power and strength. Also, phytoestrogen don't show up in blood tests. With herbs it's more about finding the balance of what your body feels like and how much you can take. If you want science, then pharma HRT is the only way.

[The First Aria]

See if this helps.  My Gender Doc say one .1mg patch equals about 1 2 mg Estrogen tablet.  Main reason is in pill form, you loose about 80% due to liver, gastric juices etc.  I have been on injections for about 2 months now, 10 mg every 2 weeks.  I had to cut back to 5 mg cause my blood Estrogen hit almost 500.

[Popcangirl]

PM capsules may have different dosages. What I keep seeing around, for pure PM, is 500mg caps from a few different retailers. When I read some 50 at the end of the dosage I always suspect that it's some concentrate or extract. In that case be careful because, obviously, concentrates are supposed to me many times more powerful than raw powder. (My experience says that there isn't a direct "concentration to power" relationship, but still..).

When a genetic males takes any estrogen there is always a risk of blood cloths. Many TG people are given substances to thin their blood to avoid that. Some take small doses of aspirin, that is a blood thinner. Licorice has a strong effect on the blood and it raises pressure. It has almost no hormonal effect and I have no idea of why people keep taking it while on PM. I like the taste of pure dark licorice sweets, but that's a treat an not medication.

Somewhere on this forum I read that 1000mg of raw PM extract (Ainterol's for example) have the same estrogenic power of trassexual's HRT. A few PM users took up to 3000 mg/day (3 times the advised dosage) and their results seem to confirm the assumption. Plus, PM has miroestrol that acts on the milk ducts (like FG) so it pumps breast tissue more than regular HRT (at comparable dosage).

The real problem with herbals is that doctors can't do their maths about them. Different strands and brands have different power and strength. Also, phytoestrogen don't show up in blood tests. With herbs it's more about finding the balance of what your body feels like and how much you can take. If you want science, then pharma HRT is the only way.

Thanks for the info and your perspective. 

I understand that the math and science is easier to figure for pharma hrt but I believe we might still be able to find acceptible ranges with herbals so long as we don't damage our livers.

I had good results while taking 3300 mg of PM and I estimate that this was equivalent to at least 1.056 mg of estradiol based on 500mg of PM being equivalent to 0.16mg.

As I understand it only about 5-10% of oral estrogen goes to the bloodstream because the stomach and liver get to it first. While topical doses have far higher efficiency.

As far as PM serum goes, I don't know how efficiently it is absorbed and penetrated into the bloodstream. But I can make some guesses to come up with reasonable ranges.

Let's say PM serum might be either 25%, 50%, or 75% efficient, meaning this is how much actually makes it to the bloodstream. This would be between 2.5 and 15 times as potent as taking PM orally. 

So let's say the goal is to reach the equivalent of 4mg oral estradiol daily. If 500mg of PM orally is equivant to 0.16mg estradiol then it would take 25x500mg which equals 12,500mg daily...ouch. But now divide 12,500 by 2.5-15 from earlier. This gives a range of 833.33 to 5000 mg of PM topically to achieve equivalent of 4mg oral estradiol.

One fluid ounce of water weighs about 1.045 ounces by weight and PM serume is a little more dense than water. But we'll use water as an example. So one fluid ounce if PM serum weighs at least 1.045 ounces. And one ounce of PM by weight equals 28,349 mg. So 1.045*28,349 equals 29,624 mg. If we need 833.33 to 5,000 mg of PM serum daily this means that an ounce by weight of PM serum would be enough for 5.9 to 35.5 days of 4mg equivalent estradiol dosing.

So if we could more accurately know the actual absorption rate if PM we could have better dosing guides for applying PM serum to our breasts.

With the math of all this I'm planning on applying no more than 2 - 1 ounce bottles of PM serum per month. 

Each bottle contains about 570 drops. So 2 bottles means 1140 drops divided by 30 days equals about 38 drops per day.

I'm just playing it on the save side, even though I wish I could just fill my bathtub with serum...

[Popcangirl]

PM capsules may have different dosages. What I keep seeing around, for pure PM, is 500mg caps from a few different retailers. When I read some 50 at the end of the dosage I always suspect that it's some concentrate or extract. In that case be careful because, obviously, concentrates are supposed to me many times more powerful than raw powder. (My experience says that there isn't a direct "concentration to power" relationship, but still..).

When a genetic males takes any estrogen there is always a risk of blood cloths. Many TG people are given substances to thin their blood to avoid that. Some take small doses of aspirin, that is a blood thinner. Licorice has a strong effect on the blood and it raises pressure. It has almost no hormonal effect and I have no idea of why people keep taking it while on PM. I like the taste of pure dark licorice sweets, but that's a treat an not medication.

Somewhere on this forum I read that 1000mg of raw PM extract (Ainterol's for example) have the same estrogenic power of trassexual's HRT. A few PM users took up to 3000 mg/day (3 times the advised dosage) and their results seem to confirm the assumption. Plus, PM has miroestrol that acts on the milk ducts (like FG) so it pumps breast tissue more than regular HRT (at comparable dosage).

The real problem with herbals is that doctors can't do their maths about them. Different strands and brands have different power and strength. Also, phytoestrogen don't show up in blood tests. With herbs it's more about finding the balance of what your body feels like and how much you can take. If you want science, then pharma HRT is the only way.

The reason I took licorice was because it cut my testosterone down by about 48% from around 500 to 250 on blood tests. But it also raises cortisol.

[Popcangirl]

See if this helps.  My Gender Doc say one .1mg patch equals about 1 2 mg Estrogen tablet.  Main reason is in pill form, you loose about 80% due to liver, gastric juices etc.  I have been on injections for about 2 months now, 10 mg every 2 weeks.  I had to cut back to 5 mg cause my blood Estrogen hit almost 500.

Thanks. Yes I've been told that 90-95% of estrogen is taken out by stomach and liver. Topical might be the most efficient and least damaging to liver other than straight injections. 

Wow 500. Amazing response. I can only wish. For now it's only DIY PM serum.

I wish I could find an intermediate to supply estrogen patches to my post office since I can't have it go directly from inhousepharmacy to my po box.

[happyboobs]

What licorice do you use and how much how often to lower T?  thanks

And is there a round about formula for how much to lower a certain %?

thanks!

[Popcangirl]

What licorice do you use and how much how often to lower T?  thanks

And is there a round about formula for how much to lower a certain %?

thanks!

happyboobsWhat licorice do you use and how much how often to lower T?  thanks
And is there a round about formula for how much to lower a certain %?
thanks!

I must stress that I am not a doctor and not giving medical advise. Also I would highly caution you about overdoing it with licorice. Use carefully because we don't need to increase breasts at the expense of having a heart attack, stroke, or bloodclots.

There have been small human and animals studies that show Licorice Root (not the candy) can reduce the conversion of  androstenedione to testosterone through inhibiting an enzyme, I think it's called 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase.


A study of healthy young men showed that taking 7 grams of licorice per day (with 0.5 grams Glycyrrhetinic Acid) over 7 days reduced the conversion of androstenedione to Testosterone for an average decrease of 55%. 740 ng/dl to 484 ng/dl.

The study was scrutinized and the researchers redid the study with a larger sample size and found the second time there was a 26% reduction in testosterone.

A rat study showed that rats had about a quarter reduction in testosterone from taking 2 grams per kg of body weight.
To figure the equivalent dose for humans there are allometric calculators online to convert. But roughly speaking pound per pound (kg per kg) humans need 6.2 times less intake per kg of body weight for similar results. So going from a 250 mg rat to a 100 kg human means 400 times more. But don't forget to divide 400 by 6.2. That gives us 64.5 times more licorice needed by humans than a rat. This would mean 130 grams. This amount would be toxic and maybe deadly and cost prohibitive. 

At my height I never exceeded 3.5 to 7 grams daily of licorice extract. My testosterone dropped nearly in half but I became sick and stopped altogether.
Since then I focus more on reducing free testosterone levels which is more important than only reducing total testosterone.

I don't know why my results were twice as good as the larger human study and significantly better than the rat study. So don't use my numbers as your own without researching peer reviwed studies.

I just went on Amazon and found licorice extract that listed the Glycyrrhetinic Acid content. My goal was to take 500 mg of 
Glycyrrhetinic Acid. Half before bed and half upon waking. I don't know if my timing increased results but it worked for me.

You might instead consider Spearmint tea which I have found to also help reduce my testosterone levels modestly but more importantly increased my SHBG. At least for me this had the effect of reducing my free testosterone levels to about 30-50% of their baseline. Use caution though. I steeped between 60 and 80 grams of tea daily. This can impact your kidneys.

[HannahL]

There's actually no evidence that PM can cause blood clots and stroke. Studies actually show that it reduces clotting and platelet count. You're also not taking a concentration of any one molecule, and the doses of more commonly known phytestrogen's are much lower than what has been studied with no toxic effects. Studies have used them in super high doses, way more than you'd even get in 5000 mg of PM.

That's not to say I think people should take huge amounts of PM but as far as I've seen, and researched, there is no evidence for increased blood clotting at doses people are taking here.

As for HRT, there are a lot of factors which significantly affect a persons risk, you can see here if you scroll down: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.k4810

Maintain a low BMI, preferably under 22, and eat a healthy diet and you'll go a LONG way to mitigating this rare but serious side. As shown in the figure.6, BMI matters: some people even have reduced risk of blot clots on estradiol.

For those who don't understand how to read the data in the study, here's another article. https://jeanhailes.org.au/news/mht-blood-clots

So yah, estrogen can be dangerous but forums seriously exaggerate the risks of low dose E, especially places like susans. The absolute risk is still very small.