[Lotus]

One question might be what makes better sense, supplement (stack) "pre" or "post-workout", meaning supplementing when levels (HGH) are peak, or when in recovery period (repiar).

Personally?, I'd supplement before, then eat after the fast and HIIT workout.

[Lotus]

Now how about this:

A HIIT breast work-out?, e.g. taking those pectoral muscles beyond exhaustion, thinking what I'm thinking? lol.........yeah, you know it........ HGH for direct breast growth.

[pom19]

Wow, Lotus, I'll try to study what you wrote in above threads and then apply them with fasting. I hope HIIT after fasting will not shrink me, I don't weight a lot for a bio male- Thanks again, POM

[Lotus]

Wow, Lotus, I'll try to study what you wrote in above threads and then apply them with fasting. I hope HIIT after fasting will not shrink me, I don't weight a lot for a bio male- Thanks again, POM

I understand, let me explain it like this, if your baseline T levels are already low pre-work out, and you supplement with anti-androgens it should stand to reason you'll still see a slight bump in T. But, according to the study below fatty acids did not increase cortisol, which, increased cortisol drives T levels up, (e.g. stress). In order to grow breasts we still need T, which T converts to E through aromatase, (that part is indisputable). Honestly, (IMO) I don't see it as a problem. Take a look at this study below, (see the note at the bottom, I'll provide other studies regarding HIIT).


High-intensity training produces free radicals, but it triggers an abundance of repair peptides, enzymes and hormones to be released. The net effect of this is healthy tissue repair and favorable effects on body composition and anti-aging qualities.

Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise.
Volek JS1, Kraemer WJ, Bush JA, Incledon T, Boetes M.
Author information
Abstract
Manipulation of resistance exercise variables (i.e., intensity, volume, and rest periods) affects the endocrine response to exercise; however, the influence of dietary nutrients on basal and exercise-induced concentrations of hormones is less understood. The present study examined the relationship between dietary nutrients and resting and exercise-induced blood concentrations of testosterone (T) and cortisol ©. Twelve men performed a bench press exercise protocol (5 sets to failure using a 10-repetitions maximum load) and a jump squat protocol (5 sets of 10 repetitions using 30% of each subject's 1-repetition maximum squat) with 2 min of rest between all sets. A blood sample was obtained at preexercise and 5 min postexercise for determination of serum T and C. Subjects also completed detailed dietary food records for a total of 17 days. There was a significant (P < or = 0.05) increase in postexercise T compared with preexercise values for both the bench press (7.4%) and jump squat (15.1%) protocols; however, C was not significantly different from preexercise concentrations. Significant correlations were observed between preexercise T and percent energy protein (r = -0.71), percent energy fat (r = 0.72), saturated fatty acids (g.1,000 kcal-1.day-1; r = 0.77), monounsaturated fatty acids (g.1,000 kcal-1.day-1; r = 0.79, the polyunsaturated fat-to-saturated fat ratio (r = -0.63), and the protein-to-carbohydrate ratio (r = -0.59). There were no significant correlations observed between any nutritional variables and preexercise C or the absolute increase in T and C after exercise. These data confirm that high-intensity resistance exercise results in elevated postexercise T concentrations. A more impressive finding was that dietary nutrients may be capable of modulating resting concentrations of T.

The bigger thing is the growth hormone increase, which is what we're after.

[myboobs]

Here's another good NBE hack on MSM for genetic males, intermittent fasting followed by high intensity work outs generates a spike in growth hormones, including IGF-1R, p-IGF-1R, STAT5b, p-STAT5b, and Jak2 in osteoblastic cells and MSCs. MSM benefits muscle & tissue repair.

Researchers at the Intermountain Medical Center Heart Institute found that men who had fasted for 24 hours had a 2000% increase in circulating HGH. Women who were tested had a 1300% increase in HGH. (I'd say that's significant natural growth, as opposed to taking HGH [synthetic]).


MSM enhances GH signaling via the Jak2/STAT5b pathway in osteoblast-like cells and osteoblast differentiation through the activation of STAT5b in MSCs.
Joung YH1, Lim EJ, Darvin P, Chung SC, Jang JW, Do Park K, Lee HK, Kim HS, Park T, Yang YM.
Author information
Abstract
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) is a naturally occurring sulfur compound with well-known anti-oxidant properties and anti-inflammatory activities. But, its effects on bone are unknown. Growth hormone (GH) is regulator of bone growth and bone metabolism. GH activates several signaling pathways such as the Janus kinase (Jak)/signal transducers and activators of transcription (STAT) pathway, thereby regulating expression of genes including insulin-like growth factor (IGF)-1. GH exerts effects both directly and via IGF-1, which signals by activating the IGF-1 receptor (IGF-1R). In this study, we investigated the effects of MSM on the GH signaling via the Jak/STAT pathway in osteoblasts and the differentiation of primary bone marrow mesenchymal stem cells (MSCs). MSM was not toxic to osteoblastic cells and MSCs. MSM increased the expression of GH-related proteins including IGF-1R, p-IGF-1R, STAT5b, p-STAT5b, and Jak2 in osteoblastic cells and MSCs. MSM increased IGF-1R and GHR mRNA expression in osteoblastic cells. The expression of MSM-induced IGF-1R and GHR was inhibited by AG490, a Jak2 kinase inhibitor. MSM induced binding of STAT5 to the IGF-1R and increased IGF-1 and IGF-1R promoter activities. Analysis of cell extracts by immunoprecipitation and Western blot showed that MSM enhanced GH-induced activation of Jak2/STAT5b. We found that MSM and GH, separately or in combination, activated GH signaling via the Jak2/STAT5b pathway in UMR-106 cells. Using siRNA analysis, we found that STAT5b plays an essential role in GH signaling activation in C3H10T1/2 cells. Osteogenic marker genes (ALP, ON, OCN, BSP, OSX, and Runx2) were activated by MSM, and siRNA-mediated STAT5b knockdown inhibited MSM-induced expression of osteogenic markers. Furthermore, MSM increased ALP activity and the mineralization of MSCs. Taken together, these results indicated that MSM can promote osteogenic differentiation of MSCs through activation of STAT5b.



Growth hormone pulse-activated STAT5 signalling: a unique regulatory mechanism governing sexual dimorphism of liver gene expression.
Waxman DJ1.
Author information
Abstract
Growth hormone (GH) exerts sexually dimorphic effects on liver gene transcription that are regulated by the temporal pattern of pituitary GH release; this release is intermittent in male rats and nearly continuous in females. Comparisons of liver nuclear protein tyrosine phosphorylation in male and female rats have led to the discovery that the liver transcription factor STAT5b is tyrosine phosphorylated in male but not female rats in response to GH pulses. Intermittent plasma GH pulses trigger a rapid and repeated tyrosine phosphorylation and nuclear translocation of liver STAT5b in intact male rats, while the more continuous pattern of GH exposure down-regulates the STAT5b signalling pathway in female rat liver. The central importance of STAT5b for the physiological effects of GH pulses has been verified using a mouse gene knockout model. STAT5b gene disruption leads to a major loss of multiple sexually differentiated responses associated with the sexually dimorphic pattern of pituitary GH secretion. Male-characteristic body growth rates and male-specific liver gene expression are decreased to wild-type female levels in STAT5b-/- males, while female-predominant liver gene products are increased in males to near female levels. STAT5b is thus a liver-expressed, latent cytoplasmic transcription factor that undergoes repeated tyrosine phosphorylation and nuclear translocation in response to intermittent plasma GH stimulation, and is a key intracellular mediator of the stimulatory effects of GH pulses on male-specific liver gene transcription. Other studies indicate, however, that STAT5a and STAT5b are both required for constitutive expression in female, but not male liver, of certain GH-regulated CYP enzymes. GH activation of both STAT5 proteins, which in turn form distinct homodimeric and heterodimeric DNA-binding complexes, is thus an important determinant of the sex-dependent and gene-specific effects that GH has on the liver.

I think it makes sense to take MSM after a high intensity workout, (biotin too, for its abilty to break down carbs). But because MSM induces binding of STAT5 to the IGF-1R and increases IGF-1 and IGF-1R promotes these activities you'd have to give MSM considerable attention for after workout repair. I like the 12-14 hour intermittent fast, followed by High-intensity Interval Training (HIIT) , that's short bursts of intense work followed by less intense activity or rest.


Growth hormone signaling in human adipose and muscle tissue during "feast and famine"; Amplification of exercise stimulation following fasting compared to glucose administration.

Conclusions: This study demonstrates that fasting and exercise act in tandem to amplify STAT-5b target gene expression (SOCS and CISH) in adipose and muscle tissue in accordance with the "feast and famine hypothesis"; the adipose tissue signaling responses which hitherto have not been scrutinized may play a particular role in promoting FFA mobilization.

http://www.eje-online.org/content/early/...1157.short


Fasting and fitness boost human growth hormone

Intermittent fasting for periods ranging from 12-24 hours along with high intensity exercise has a positive effect on boosting human growth hormone (HGH). HGH is a very important protein-based hormone that is produced by the pituitary gland. HGH enhances the cellular repair processes that allow us to age with grace. HGH regulates metabolism to burn fat, build muscle, and slow down the negative effects of stress.

Researchers at the Intermountain Medical Center Heart Institute found that men who had fasted for 24 hours had a 2000% increase in circulating HGH. Women who were tested had a 1300% increase in HGH.

A 2009 study in the British Journal of Sports Medicine showed that lactic acid accumulation helps to trigger HGH. Lactic acid is only produced in response to intense anaerobic training. Aerobic training is not intense enough to produce the kind of lactate triggering of HGH.

Low-intensity, long duration aerobic training is catabolic in nature. This means that it produces lots of free radicals without promoting significant amounts of repair peptides, enzymes and hormones. The net effect is a wearing down of bodily resources.

High-intensity training also produces free radicals but it triggers an abundance of repair peptides, enzymes and hormones to be released. The net effect of this is healthy tissue repair and favorable effects on body composition and anti-aging qualities.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/034704_interm...z3cAB6XEkK

Effects of growth hormone on adipose tissue
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11086655




IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) activates the biosynthesis of Aromatase, (the key enzyme in the biosynthesis of oestrogen).

In other words, (this will bow your mind), intermittent fasting followed by HIIT (High-intensity Interval Training) raises HGH (IGF-1) by 2000%, what percentage is going to be aromatase?. Sorry, I don't have the answer yet, I don't think anybody does.

What you eat matters after the HIIT workout, skip the carbs/sugars so the GH has a better chance to convert that fat. Take it a step further and add a high FAT/LOW carb diet and really push it into overdrive. As we know estrogen forms the type of subcutaneous seen in females (meaning that curvy figure), we want that nice toned FAT (curves), otherwise the new fat goes right to your gut, (yes some goes to hips and thighs), but the majority will go to visceral fat, which is very difficult to get rid off. Normal breast tissue cannot develop except in the presence of both progestogen and estrogen. Fibrotic, conical breasts and no areola growth indicate that breasts haven't fully matured, progesterone can help correct this.

(GH activation of both STAT5 proteins, which in turn form distinct homodimeric and heterodimeric DNA-binding complexes, is thus an important determinant of the sex-dependent and gene-specific effects that GH has on the liver).




Don't forget vitamin D and biotin,

vitamin D analogs significantly upregulated E2- and DHT-induced CK response. These analogs upregulated the CK response to selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs). An estrogenic response (from vitamin D) is seen in the intestinal tract. Vitamin D also helps with hair growth.


If you could do this 3x a week, (imo) the chances of raising growth hormones is far better (higher) than any suppplement could do. (Amazing stuff). These growth spurts (similar to puberty) could provide the spark for new growth that we so desperately want.

Fantastic info lotus , thx

[ellacraig]

Hey D,
Can you look into this for my simple mind please.
Upon "trying" to understand the conclusions I understand that Maca gelantinized is helpful re perimenousaul symptons anxiety related for women BUT what is the conclusion to whether it has a hormone balancing effect?
My particular concern is will/does it raise estrogen at all?
Thanks D

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614604/

[Lotus]

Thanks POM and myboobs, the HIIT is extremely difficult and is no joke. If you can't do those kinds of exercises then start with what you can do. The point is to raise growth hormones, (small steps=big rewards)

Hey D,
Can you look into this for my simple mind please.
Upon "trying" to understand the conclusions I understand that Maca gelantinized is helpful re perimenousaul symptons anxiety related for women BUT what is the conclusion to whether it has a hormone balancing effect?
My particular concern is will/does it raise estrogen at all?
Thanks D

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614604/

Hi Ella,

Nice find,

Past research I found showed MACA increased DHEA, which led to increased libido. This study shows that MACA isn't a phytoestrogen or phyto-hormone. Keep in mind, these results are animal based, but the correlation to humans are noted. (The notes below are condensed from the study).

The sterols in MACA are used by the body with the help of the pituitary to improve adrenal function. By promoting optimal functioning of the hypothalamus and the pituitary, maca improves the functioning of all the endocrine glands (e.g. thyroid, pancreas and the pineal gland).

A reduction in Cortisol levels was accompanied by anti-depressive effects. Maca lowers E2 and progesterone, positive results were also recorded in terms of tendency to restrict weight increase, lowering triglycerides in blood plasma and an increase in calcium and phosphorus deposition in bone and muscle tissues.

To answer your question, according to this study MACA lowers estrogen.

[ellacraig]

Thanks POM and myboobs, the HIIT is extremely difficult and is no joke. If you can't do those kinds of exercises then start with what you can do. The point is to raise growth hormones, (small steps=big rewards)

Hey D,
Can you look into this for my simple mind please.
Upon "trying" to understand the conclusions I understand that Maca gelantinized is helpful re perimenousaul symptons anxiety related for women BUT what is the conclusion to whether it has a hormone balancing effect?
My particular concern is will/does it raise estrogen at all?
Thanks D

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3614604/

Hi Ella,

Nice find,

Past research I found showed MACA increased DHEA, which led to increased libido. This study shows that MACA isn't a phytoestrogen or phyto-hormone. Keep in mind, these results are animal based, but the correlation to humans are noted. (The notes below are condensed from the study).

The sterols in MACA are used by the body with the help of the pituitary to improve adrenal function. By promoting optimal functioning of the hypothalamus and the pituitary, maca improves the functioning of all the endocrine glands (e.g. thyroid, pancreas and the pineal gland).

A reduction in Cortisol levels was accompanied by anti-depressive effects. Maca lowers E2 and progesterone, positive results were also recorded in terms of tendency to restrict weight increase, lowering triglycerides in blood plasma and an increase in calcium and phosphorus deposition in bone and muscle tissues.

To answer your question, according to this study MACA lowers estrogen.

ah thank you.
Yes I had another bad "episode" with pc cream last night so dabbling with that is officially done. I've started on low dose maca for now. When do you think is a good time to take a break assuming no ill effects in the meantime.. like during Menses?

Ps. Missed ya..

[Lotus]

ah thank you.
Yes I had another bad "episode" with pc cream last night so dabbling with that is officially done. I've started on low dose maca for now. When do you think is a good time to take a break assuming no ill effects in the meantime.. like during Menses?

Ps. Missed ya..

Sorry to hear that, (definitely blows) , this is just my opinion, and I can't possibly relate being a dude, but why not (for the gals) skip "all" NBE herbs prior to menses?, (and no, I'm not under the influence lol). Phytoestrogens increase blood flood (nitric oxide), and with uterine fibroids taking phyto's (and pharma bc) could and does make matters worse. Some Phytoestrogens increases triglycerides (aka-fat), so it's no wonder why increased inflammation leading to acne, depression, thyroid issues exist. It stands to reason getting hormones and inflammation in balance first would be the prudent course.

I know our fear is to not lose any gains, but a break might be the thing to right the crazy train, sinking ship etc etc.....

Miss yer too.

[ellacraig]

ah thank you.
Yes I had another bad "episode" with pc cream last night so dabbling with that is officially done. I've started on low dose maca for now. When do you think is a good time to take a break assuming no ill effects in the meantime.. like during Menses?

Ps. Missed ya..

Sorry to hear that, (definitely blows) , this is just my opinion, and I can't possibly relate being a dude, but why not (for the gals) skip "all" NBE herbs prior to menses?, (and no, I'm not under the influence lol). Phytoestrogens increase blood flood (nitric oxide), and with uterine fibroids taking phyto's (and pharma bc) could and does make matters worse. Some Phytoestrogens increases triglycerides (aka-fat), so it's no wonder why increased inflammation leading to acne, depression, thyroid issues exist. It stands to reason getting hormones and inflammation in balance first would be the prudent course.

I know our fear is to not lose any gains, but a break might be the thing to right the crazy train, sinking ship etc etc.....

Miss yer too.

Good point 're phytos but would maca fenugreek or fennel come under the phyto umbrella? Fennel maybe? What you think?