[AnnieBL]

Thank you, Lenneth for your good wishes. In fact the diagnosis was something of a relief. In the ER they were first checking that I hadn't had a heart attack (I hadn't) and then X-rayed me and said there was a mass of feces lodged at the top right hand corner of my colon. They gave me heavy duty painkillers and a prescription for a laxative and sent me home. The next day they set up an urgent appointment for a CAT scan which left me wondering what they expected to find. With this strange swelling under my ribs on my right hand side I had more or less resigned myself to a colon cancer diagnosis so what actually happened almost did seem the answer to a prayer.

[Lenneth]

Thank you, Lenneth for your good wishes.

Anytime, its the least I could do.

In fact the diagnosis was something of a relief. In the ER they were first checking that I hadn't had a heart attack (I hadn't) and then X-rayed me and said there was a mass of feces lodged at the top right hand corner of my colon. They gave me heavy duty painkillers and a prescription for a laxative and sent me home. The next day they set up an urgent appointment for a CAT scan which left me wondering what they expected to find. With this strange swelling under my ribs on my right hand side I had more or less resigned myself to a colon cancer diagnosis so what actually happened almost did seem the answer to a prayer.

I can see how that would be a relief, still not a pleasant diagnosis though...

[AnnieBL]

Has anyone any suggestions as to what I should do now? It looks as if I may have to wait at least until August for surgery, and if it was rapidly changing estrogen levels that triggered the initial gall bladder attack, which is possible but by no means certain, I am not certain that I wish to risk another attack in the meanwhile. I have been off PM, as well as off spiro and beta blockers, for more than a month now and have been taking butea superba during that time, latterly also tongkat ali, neither of which seems to have any noticeable effect. J. and I are agreed that any improvement in my conventional male function is to date far too little and will probably remain so. My inclination for the present is to restart RC and FG (which is after all what produced my initial budding) plus perhaps SP (although I suspect my T level is still minimal), pending further developments (hopefully of the right kind). The initial attack was great from the weight loss point of view (10lbs in only a few days) but a lot of it came back as hydration levels returned to normal. Blood pressure seems to have stabilised nicely at good levels. I still seem to be very calm - maybe the butea superba has a calming effect if nothing else? The bruised feeling behind my nipples has gone and the buds seem less firm.

I have been wondering about the potency of the butea superba and tongkat ali that I have used. I started off with BS from Ainterol but since BS products seem to be on Health Canada’s hit list (they have apparently alleged that many contain bootleg Cialis or Viagra analogues) I also ordered some from a Canadian source (since then apparently itself put off the Canadian market by Health Canada). The latter said that it was 30:1 extract (200mg per capsule), while the Ainterol says that it is 500mg of root powder. Both seem equally ineffective. Obtaining genuine tongkat ali seems to be problematical in any case, and one apparently needs at least a 50:1 extract. The Ainterol capsules do not seem to be an extract at all, and their extract is both expensive and does not state its concentration. The product I did get claims to be 100:1 extract but only contains 50mg per capsule, whereas some other sources suggest that you need 1000mg per day of 100:1 extract. I did steadily ramp up the dose on each recommended 5 days on / 2 days off cycle, but again with no noticeable effect.

I have also been taking maca. Way off topic, but I discovered on reading up on maca that it is grown only in a limited area of the Peruvian altiplano between Junin and Cerro de Pasco, which is somewhere that I actually visited fifteen years ago on a railway tour through Peru. This included a round trip on the Cerro de Pasco Railway, which passes right through the area concerned at an altitude of around 14,000 feet. My photographs do show some small cultivated areas. Having noted PattiJT's "Can't decide on a title" thread and some other recent posts by Pansy-Mae, I should note that another participant on that trip was in fact a leading American manufacturer of garden railways (although my own interest has tended more to the full size variety). I did once have a railway building fantasy at our last house, where our land ran back over 1000 yards into the bush through interesting terrain, brought on by the discovery that a local firm of house-movers had hidden in their yard not only three British 2 foot gauge locomotives but also the better part of a mile of track panels. Of course I didn’t have that kind of money and they were known to be unwilling to sell in any case, but it was fun planning a possible layout.

[bryony]

Has anyone any suggestions as to what I should do now?
It looks as if I may have to wait at least until August for surgery, ...

Wow... I have to strongly recommend waiting until your body settles down. Is Pre-surgery a good time to be experimenting with phytohormones?

... if it was rapidly changing estrogen levels that triggered the initial gall bladder attack, which is possible but by no means certain, I am not certain that I wish to risk another attack in the meanwhile.

That seems sensible - but why, in that case, take anything else?

I have been off PM, as well as off spiro and beta blockers, for more than a month now and have been taking butea superba during that time, latterly also tongkat ali, neither of which seems to have any noticeable effect.

I think it is worth considering that your considerable health problems may have left you in the kind of mental state where nothing but rest and relaxation will help. I know that when I am under any kind of mental or physical stress, E.D. is a much bigger problem.

J. and I are agreed that any improvement in my conventional male function is to date far too little and will probably remain so. My inclination for the present is to restart RC and FG (which is after all what produced my initial budding) plus perhaps SP (although I suspect my T level is still minimal), pending further developments (hopefully of the right kind).

This is a bit confusing, so I am going to read between the lines here - correct me if I am wrong.
1) you are assuming a more or less permanent loss of all or most male functionality
2) you would like to develop your breast tissue with a view to using this an alternative substitute, like I and other can.

The problem I see here is as follows:
1) breast development is only going to happen by stimulation of estrogen receptors, either naturally produced by means of androgen suppression or ingested.
2) you probably won't make enough even with total androgen suppression - which would also completely wipe out any hope of restoring any kind of virility.
3) if you ingest estrogen, you put yourself at risk of a gall bladder attack - which was why you stopped taking PM.
4) the RC and Fenugreek will only develop your breasts if you take sufficient quantity to stimulate you estrogen receptors - so you may as well resume PM which is far more effective.

Personally, I think you ought to talk over the desire to grow breasts with someone who understands your health situation, tell them that you intend to do it with herbs and ask them to monitor your health while you do it.

Otherwise, if you don't tell them, and you have further problems which may or may not be related to your self-medication, they will not have all the facts, may mis-prescribe and you may wind up dead - not good.

I have been wondering about the potency of the butea superba and tongkat ali that I have used. I started off with BS from Ainterol but since BS products seem to be on Health Canada’s hit list (they have apparently alleged that many contain bootleg Cialis or Viagra analogues) I also ordered some from a Canadian source (since then apparently itself put off the Canadian market by Health Canada).

I use Ainterol BS. I haven't heard about these rumours of adulteration, but I'd be very surprised if they'd risk it. I also haven't noticed any Viagra-style side effects.

From the look of it, you are still intent on restoring some male function, otherwise you would not be taking these supplements?

The latter said that it was 30:1 extract (200mg per capsule), while the Ainterol says that it is 500mg of root powder. Both seem equally ineffective. Obtaining genuine tongkat ali seems to be problematical in any case, and one apparently needs at least a 50:1 extract. The Ainterol capsules do not seem to be an extract at all, and their extract is both expensive and does not state its concentration. The product I did get claims to be 100:1 extract but only contains 50mg per capsule, whereas some other sources suggest that you need 1000mg per day of 100:1 extract. I did steadily ramp up the dose on each recommended 5 days on / 2 days off cycle, but again with no noticeable effect.

You either get these kind of herbs as extract or powdered root. PM as root powder is so effective that I've never troubled to try extract.
Hence, I can only speak for powdered ainterol BS. ( I'm actually not aware of anyone else here who takes it other than we two!) It seems to help me, and I don't think it's a placebo.... but I cannot be sure.

I have also been taking maca. ...

Me too. I really think it helps, not least with my dysphoria, but also with ED.

Good luck - I don't know if I've been of any help really, but I hope so!

B.

[Lisia]

I have also been taking the Ainterol BS for about 2 months now, and it definitely helps me to function when on high doses of PM. (3-4g)

Lisia

[AnnieBL]

In general, you are telling me the same things that one side of me has been telling myself!
One or two points. I don't believe that it was PM as such that brought on the attack. Rather, it was stopping it suddenly causing a rapid change in estrogen levels. Certainly the timing supports this theory. That being the case, I was hoping that careful reintroduction of much weaker but not (based on experience) entirely ineffective herbs might be low risk particularly if sudden changes in dosage were avoided. I should add that while I was still on PM I was beginning to wonder why I was pursuing NBE, but the urge is now back in full force. When I was speaking to the surgeon he did say that I would probably sooner or later have another attack, which might be worse, unless the gallbladder was removed. I said that I didn't know what caused the original attack, and could it have been changes in medication or herbal supplements? He thought this was unlikely, and told me that apart from fatty foods, most people never really knew what caused their attacks.
Your point about mental or physical stress worsening ED is well taken, but in fact, apart from the GB attack, I have been feeling much better since getting off the spiro and beta blocker. Incidentally, it is not libido that is lacking, only the physical response.
As to products containing "unauthorised substances" these are mainly composites which may include BS and which have been found by government agencies to incorporate PDE5 inhibitors of various types. The difficulty arises because BS contains a PDE5 inhibitor, and this resulted in one product containing it being characterised as containing an unidentified unauthorised substance similar to Cialis. I have no reason to suppose that there is any problem with the Ainterol BS, except that it is supposed to act like Cialis.

[AnnieBL]

Before being exposed to the information and insights of this forum, I had thought that the loss of responsiveness of my male organs was mainly a physical effect of the medications I was taking, and that the increasing responsiveness of my breast area (sometimes approaching the extent described by Bryony and Sfem) to be a form of physical compensation for that loss. Having got off what I regarded as the medications most damaging to male function, Bryony urged and I agreed that I had a duty to my wife to try to restore effective male function.

Having tried quite hard for some time, and failed to achieve anything useable, it became clear that she would rather that I didn’t try to hard to achieve something that was causing both of us frustration, and that we should concentrate on things that do work for us: since when our physical relationship has greatly improved. Possibly TMI, but about the only thing that would produce any stirring of life in my male parts was nipple stimulation, and that stirring, as has tended to be the case for some years, disappeared instantly on any attempt to use the result. Now that I am only doing things that could in fact equally well be done by a female, everything is much happier for both of us.

At the same time the long period off phytoestrogens has brought back my desire for breasts in full force, even together with some cross-dressing urges which had never been strong in my case - the unappealing results were an instant turn-off. While I still think that restarting PM is too risky pending gallbladder surgery, I have now gradually and very carefully reverted to my pre-PM regime using less powerful herbs, which at least has made me feel better and may even have done something for my boobs, although losing 28lbs has had the kind of effect that might have been predicted. At least my cardiologist is very pleased with me!

Puzzlingly, my wife, who has achieved a proportionate weight loss, is now complaining that her bras are too small, and that she has not only been compelled to buy a C cup for the first time in her life, but that even that is none too large. Possibly there has been some change in shape that has made her recognize something that I had thought for some time!