Anti-Androgens - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Anti-Androgens (/showthread.php?tid=17416)

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Lotus - 07-09-2014

For the non geeky types,




[attachment=7960]

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Lotus - 07-09-2014


Actually this one might make sense,




[attachment=7961]

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Lotus - 07-09-2014

The important thing to remember here is this:

(07-09-2014, 10:56 PM)Lotus Wrote:  A target cell may have between 2,000 and 100,000 receptors for a particular hormone.

Receptors, like other cellular proteins, are constantly being synthesized and broken down. Here's an important (pro active) step:

CYCLE YOUR NBE PROGRAMS WITH BREAKS!

Tolerance occurs when the person no longer responds to the drug in the way that person initially responded. Stated another way, it takes a higher dose of the drug to achieve the same level of response achieved initially.

Some drugs require a period of abstinence periodically to allow the cell to return to normal receptor density.

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RE: Anti-Androgens - spanky - 08-09-2014

Lotus -

I recall that you once suggested that someone consider cycling 2 weeks of PM + AA with 2 weeks of progesterone cream and prolactin. I would like to give something like that a try, with a couple of tweaks, but have a couple of questions.

1. Would 3 weeks -1 week be as good?
2. What is the best way to get prolactin? (Stimulation is fine (!!!) but I don't know if it is sufficient.)
3. How would you work spearmint and reishi into the mix? (I am still searching for the best/cheapest way to get reishi).

Thanks for posting all the science (you and others). I follow it as well as I am able and enjoy learning about this complex field.

spanky

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RE: Anti-Androgens - elainecd - 08-09-2014

(07-09-2014, 07:50 PM)Lotus Wrote:  Hi elaine, (your welcome),

You'll still need an estrogenic source along with the Reishi, also WP to help convert that free T to estrogen, nipple stimulation for the release of prolactin and a progesterone source to balance the E. Here's two herbs as an example:

Fenugreek-Prolactin stimulate, increases production of estrogen, phytoestrogen, adaptogen

Shatavari-Phytoestrogen, normalizes estrogen levels, prolactin source, adaptogen

....Is NBE complicated?, no not really. What complicates NBE comes from mis-information, lack of personal research to sort fact from fiction.

So I need the mushroom plus white peony plus one of the above?
Problem is I've tried the fenugreek and it broke my face out like a teenager...lol...think the shatavari will?

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Larana - 08-09-2014



Hi Lotus,does it need still anything White Peony,Reishi,PM besides?

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Lotus - 08-09-2014

(08-09-2014, 10:39 AM)spanky Wrote:  Lotus -

I recall that you once suggested that someone consider cycling 2 weeks of PM + AA with 2 weeks of progesterone cream and prolactin. I would like to give something like that a try, with a couple of tweaks, but have a couple of questions.

1. Would 3 weeks -1 week be as good?
2. What is the best way to get prolactin? (Stimulation is fine (!!!) but I don't know if it is sufficient.)
3. How would you work spearmint and reishi into the mix? (I am still searching for the best/cheapest way to get reishi).

Thanks for posting all the science (you and others). I follow it as well as I am able and enjoy learning about this complex field.

spanky

Hi spanky,

Yes, a bio-male breast growth cycle should be an estrogenic herb and growth hormone in the first two weeks of the cycle followed by a progesterone and prolactin source for the remainder.

Hormones that bind to plasma membrane receptors can induce their effects at very low concentrations because they initiate a cascade or chain reaction.

Hormones affect distant cells by binding to specific receptor proteins in the target cell resulting in a change in cell function. When a hormone binds to the receptor, it results in the activation of a signal transduction pathway. This may lead to cell type-specific responses that include rapid non-genomic effects or slower genomic responses where the hormones acting through their receptors activate gene transcription resulting in increased expression of target proteins.

Spanky, are you concerned about being off the estrogenic herbs for 2weeks?. Honestly it's hard to say if the outcome would be effected using a 3/1 program. If you start with a 3/1 program make sure it's consistent, give it a few cycles and then evaluate.

Quote:2. What is the best way to get prolactin? (Stimulation is fine (!!!) but I don't know if it is sufficient.)

Some indirect ways come from SSRI's/TCA's (antidepressants/antipsychotic's), low thyroid, excessive exercise, stress, nipple stimuli (which I'll share my own personal opinion later, lol, short on time for now).

Breast enlargement during chronic antidepressant therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9479619

SSRIs versus Tricyclic Antidepressants
http://www.emedexpert.com/compare/ssris-vs-tca.shtml

Several antipsychotic medications, including haloperidol, phenytoin and phenothiazines have been linked to gynecomastia. Tricyclic antidepressant medications, which are older antidepressants that are only infrequently prescribed now that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are available, also increase the risk of gynecomastia. Diazepam, which is usually sold under the brand name Valium, and other anti-anxiety drugs may also induce the growth of breast tissue.

This is an interesting article-
Drugs That Could Cause Gynecomastia
http://www.livestrong.com/article/175328-drugs-that-could-cause-gynecomastia/


Normal ranges of Prolactin in men are: 2 - 18 ng/mL

Pituitary prolactin secretion is regulated by endocrine neurons in the hypothalamus, the most important ones being the neurosecretory tuberoinfundibulum (TIDA) neurons of the arcuate nucleus, which secrete dopamine (aka Prolactin Inhibitory Hormone) to act on the D2 receptors of lactotrophs, causing inhibition of prolactin secretion. Thyrotropin-releasing factor (thyrotropin-releasing hormone) has a stimulatory effect on prolactin release.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin

Melanocyte-Stimulating Hormone, causes the skin pigmentation changes of the aerolas in pregnancy.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanocyte-stimulating_hormone

_______________________

It's important to list the side effects of high prolactin for bio-males though:

In men, high prolactin levels can cause galactorrhea, impotence (inability to have an erection during sex), reduced desire for sex, and infertility. A man with untreated hyperprolactinemia may make less sperm or no sperm at all.
What are common causes of hyperprolactinemia?
Some common causes are:
• Pituitary tumors (prolactinomas)
• Hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid)
• Medicines given for depression, psychosis, and high
blood pressure
• Herbs, including fenugreek, fennel seeds, and red clover • Irritationofthechestwall(fromsurgicalscars,shingles,or
even a too-tight bra)
• Stress or exercise (usually excessive or extreme) • Certain foods
• Nipple stimulation

http://www.asrm.org/uploadedFiles/ASRM_Content/Resources/Patient_Resources/Fact_Sheets_and_Info_Booklets/Prolactin_Excess.pdf

People with the following conditions may have high prolactin levels:

Chest wall trauma or irritation
Hypothalamic disease
Hypothyroidism
Kidney disease
Pituitary tumor that makes prolactin (prolactinoma)
Other pituitary tumors and diseases
Certain medications can also raise prolactin levels, including:

Antidepressants
Butyrophenones
Estrogens
H2 blockers
Methyldopa
Metoclopramide
Phenothiazines
Reserpine
Risperidone
Verapamil
If your prolactin levels are high, the test may be repeated in the early morning after an 8-hour fast.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003718.htm


The release of prolactin is suppressed by dopamine in the brain and any reduction in dopamine will allow prolactin to rise and hinder Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing hormones (LH) which in result in menstrual dysfunction and ovulation is disrupted but once prolactin level is normalized it enhance ovulation to occur. It is important to get all hormones in balance to increase your chances of getting pregnant.

http://www.dollyhamshealth.com/content/reduce-high-prolactin-level-naturally-and-get-pregnant


Spanky, I've gotta run for now, I'll finish the rest later........To be continued

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RE: Anti-Androgens - spanky - 08-09-2014

(08-09-2014, 07:46 PM)Lotus Wrote:  

(08-09-2014, 10:39 AM)spanky Wrote:  Lotus -

I recall that you once suggested that someone consider cycling 2 weeks of PM + AA with 2 weeks of progesterone cream and prolactin. I would like to give something like that a try, with a couple of tweaks, but have a couple of questions.

1. Would 3 weeks -1 week be as good?
2. What is the best way to get prolactin? (Stimulation is fine (!!!) but I don't know if it is sufficient.)
3. How would you work spearmint and reishi into the mix? (I am still searching for the best/cheapest way to get reishi).

Thanks for posting all the science (you and others). I follow it as well as I am able and enjoy learning about this complex field.

spanky

Hi spanky,

Yes, a bio-male breast growth cycle should be an estrogenic herb and growth hormone in the first two weeks of the cycle followed by a progesterone and prolactin source for the remainder.

Hormones that bind to plasma membrane receptors can induce their effects at very low concentrations because they initiate a cascade or chain reaction.

Hormones affect distant cells by binding to specific receptor proteins in the target cell resulting in a change in cell function. When a hormone binds to the receptor, it results in the activation of a signal transduction pathway. This may lead to cell type-specific responses that include rapid non-genomic effects or slower genomic responses where the hormones acting through their receptors activate gene transcription resulting in increased expression of target proteins.

Spanky, are you concerned about being off the estrogenic herbs for 2weeks?. Honestly it's hard to say if the outcome would be effected using a 3/1 program. If you start with a 3/1 program make sure it's consistent, give it a few cycles and then evaluate.

Quote:2. What is the best way to get prolactin? (Stimulation is fine (!!!) but I don't know if it is sufficient.)

Some indirect ways come from SSRI's/TCA's (antidepressants/antipsychotic's), low thyroid, excessive exercise, stress, nipple stimuli (which I'll share my own personal opinion later, lol, short on time for now).

Breast enlargement during chronic antidepressant therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9479619

SSRIs versus Tricyclic Antidepressants
http://www.emedexpert.com/compare/ssris-vs-tca.shtml

Several antipsychotic medications, including haloperidol, phenytoin and phenothiazines have been linked to gynecomastia. Tricyclic antidepressant medications, which are older antidepressants that are only infrequently prescribed now that selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are available, also increase the risk of gynecomastia. Diazepam, which is usually sold under the brand name Valium, and other anti-anxiety drugs may also induce the growth of breast tissue.

This is an interesting article-
Drugs That Could Cause Gynecomastia
http://www.livestrong.com/article/175328-drugs-that-could-cause-gynecomastia/


Normal ranges of Prolactin in men are: 2 - 18 ng/mL

Pituitary prolactin secretion is regulated by endocrine neurons in the hypothalamus, the most important ones being the neurosecretory tuberoinfundibulum (TIDA) neurons of the arcuate nucleus, which secrete dopamine (aka Prolactin Inhibitory Hormone) to act on the D2 receptors of lactotrophs, causing inhibition of prolactin secretion. Thyrotropin-releasing factor (thyrotropin-releasing hormone) has a stimulatory effect on prolactin release.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin

Melanocyte-Stimulating Hormone, causes the skin pigmentation changes of the aerolas in pregnancy.
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanocyte-stimulating_hormone

_______________________

It's important to list the side effects of high prolactin for bio-males though:

In men, high prolactin levels can cause galactorrhea, impotence (inability to have an erection during sex), reduced desire for sex, and infertility. A man with untreated hyperprolactinemia may make less sperm or no sperm at all.
What are common causes of hyperprolactinemia?
Some common causes are:
• Pituitary tumors (prolactinomas)
• Hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid)
• Medicines given for depression, psychosis, and high
blood pressure
• Herbs, including fenugreek, fennel seeds, and red clover • Irritationofthechestwall(fromsurgicalscars,shingles,or
even a too-tight bra)
• Stress or exercise (usually excessive or extreme) • Certain foods
• Nipple stimulation

http://www.asrm.org/uploadedFiles/ASRM_Content/Resources/Patient_Resources/Fact_Sheets_and_Info_Booklets/Prolactin_Excess.pdf

People with the following conditions may have high prolactin levels:

Chest wall trauma or irritation
Hypothalamic disease
Hypothyroidism
Kidney disease
Pituitary tumor that makes prolactin (prolactinoma)
Other pituitary tumors and diseases
Certain medications can also raise prolactin levels, including:

Antidepressants
Butyrophenones
Estrogens
H2 blockers
Methyldopa
Metoclopramide
Phenothiazines
Reserpine
Risperidone
Verapamil
If your prolactin levels are high, the test may be repeated in the early morning after an 8-hour fast.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003718.htm


The release of prolactin is suppressed by dopamine in the brain and any reduction in dopamine will allow prolactin to rise and hinder Follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing hormones (LH) which in result in menstrual dysfunction and ovulation is disrupted but once prolactin level is normalized it enhance ovulation to occur. It is important to get all hormones in balance to increase your chances of getting pregnant.

http://www.dollyhamshealth.com/content/reduce-high-prolactin-level-naturally-and-get-pregnant


Spanky, I've gotta run for now, I'll finish the rest later........To be continued

Lotus -

Wow! That's a lot of information, but all helpful. I am not determined to go to a 3/1 cycle -- I was just asking. I will be quite happy to go 2/2.

On the prolactin front, I don't think I will start taking SSRIs or anti-psychotics just to boost prolactin levels! However, fenugreek and red clover are definitely an option, combined with a diligent (lol) program of nipple stimulation.

In 2 weeks, I am going to try switching from PM, WP and spearmint to PC and fenugreek and/or red clover for 2 weeks.

As between the two cycles, where would you add reishi, if at all?

For the most part thus far, I have not been good about sticking with a program. I tried WP extract only for about a month, and generally liked how I felt. I especially liked how it worked on my nipples, which seemed to grow larger and softer, as I have noted before. However, I would like to jump start things just a bit and so am going to try the cycling approach for a while.

Thank you SO MUCH for all of your input.

spanky

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Lotus - 09-09-2014

Spanky,

I'd run Reishi all month long, I think the need to still fight DHT is present at all times.

I'd have to update the last plan but I switched to Reishi Extract from Herb Pharm before ending NBE.

https://www.herb-pharm.com/store/product_info.php/products_id/163?usercpath=

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RE: Anti-Androgens - Lotus - 09-09-2014

(08-09-2014, 12:19 PM)elainecd Wrote:  

(07-09-2014, 07:50 PM)Lotus Wrote:  Hi elaine, (your welcome),

You'll still need an estrogenic source along with the Reishi, also WP to help convert that free T to estrogen, nipple stimulation for the release of prolactin and a progesterone source to balance the E. Here's two herbs as an example:

Fenugreek-Prolactin stimulate, increases production of estrogen, phytoestrogen, adaptogen

Shatavari-Phytoestrogen, normalizes estrogen levels, prolactin source, adaptogen

....Is NBE complicated?, no not really. What complicates NBE comes from mis-information, lack of personal research to sort fact from fiction.

So I need the mushroom plus white peony plus one of the above?
Problem is I've tried the fenugreek and it broke my face out like a teenager...lol...think the shatavari will?

Elaine,

Your comfort is the only concern here, using either isn't written in stone, it's entirely up to you though. Although, considering the use of other herbs (or hormones) for meaningful breast growth is hard to dispute.

The time to tweak a program should be after your body adjusts to the current program. It's possible the break out from FG came from the slight increase of T/DHT that FG carries, BB's use FG for that reason.

Here's info on shatavari-


Asparagus racemosus
http://examine.com/supplements/Asparagus+racemosus/

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