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(28-04-2016, 01:25 AM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]One minute this herb is good for this hormone and next minute turns out it's not and so forth...
Ie fenugreek is cancer protective next minute it's promoting.....
Pc cream is the best thing since sliced bread and supplies safe progesterone OH WAIT no it builds up in the body and takes months to leave and excess progesterone also puts you at risk for the big C...
Best thing... Use adaptogens.. Raise support or balance all hormones not bugger round with raising one then risk unbalancing the rest. Wish I'd taken that approach not mess myself up with said "safe phytoestrogens". .... Shy

The "one minute" thing is what it looks like to onlookers, but that's not the case. There are different studies using different methodologies, and this is why it's important to also look at any factors that may have affected the results of the specific study and to look at them as a whole rather than a back and forth between one saying one thing and another saying another. One study is not a monolith that stands above the others. this is why meta reviews are good, and anyone can find these on the online public medical journals.

that idea about progesterone cream building up is nonsense though, and it's unfortunate that alternative health practitioners who advocated the use of progesterone spread this kind of misinformation. Bioidentical USP progesterone has a half life of 14 hours, just like the progesterone your body makes because they are exactly the same, hence bioidentical.

HOWEVER, progestogens, artificial and sometimes patented progesterone analogues, are the ones that build up, and those are the ones found in hormonal birth control preparations. There seems to have been some confusion between the progesterone in progesterone cream and the progestogens in the pharmaceutical drugs. there is a major difference between the two. Your body takes care of bioidentical quite easily while progestogens vary in their effect and half-life.

Of course it's good to look before you leap, but I don't think anyone should shy away from using herbals because they are afraid of the unknown or one lone study says something scary about a concentrated, isolated compound in vitro.

I can understand not wanting to use herbals though, it can be frustrating to try one thing after another and getting side effects or not getting the results you want, and then see all the studies contradicting each other. Perfectly understandable to just trust what you think you need first!

because when it comes down to it, it's not about what some study says, but about how we feel and the results and effects we get from it, and that's why we have this forum to talk about it Big Grin
(27-04-2016, 11:52 PM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]I've mntioned on other sites re taking up to 5000IU of D3 and people have jumped up and down carrying on how dangerous that is... I've read up plenty myself on the issue and agree high doses are completely safe BUT I did read somewhere you shouldn't take high doses of D3 without vitamen K2. Do you know if this anyover?
For this reason I've onky been taking 2-3000iu until I get the k2 thing clarified.

Also same with iodine, the rdi JUST enough to stop us getting goitres let alone be of any health benefit

it's not necessarily dangerous to take high dose D3 without K2. I have taken one without the other for a long time. however both are more effective together for bone health among other things. D3 controls blood calcium levels, and K2 seems to store that in bones. bones actually play a very important role in the hormone system believe it or not!

After all there is an association between menopause and osteoporosis, and most people don't get good nutrition anyway. I think people are afraid because they think the larger dose d3 might calcify soft tissues or something. I don't think this has ever been proven but I probably wouldn't take that d3 without k2 anyway Tongue

this page says this about K2 dosage ranges depending on which K2 type you have:

Quote:The minimum effective dose for short chain menaquinones (MK-4) is 1,500mcg. Doses of up to 45mg (45,000mcg) have been safely used in a superloading dosing protocol.

The minimum effective dose for longer chain menaquinones (MK-7, MK-8, and MK-9) is between 90-360mcg. Further research is needed to determine the maximum effective dose for MK-7.
(28-04-2016, 09:46 PM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 01:25 AM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]One minute this herb is good for this hormone and next minute turns out it's not and so forth...
Ie fenugreek is cancer protective next minute it's promoting.....
Pc cream is the best thing since sliced bread and supplies safe progesterone OH WAIT no it builds up in the body and takes months to leave and excess progesterone also puts you at risk for the big C...
Best thing... Use adaptogens.. Raise support or balance all hormones not bugger round with raising one then risk unbalancing the rest. Wish I'd taken that approach not mess myself up with said "safe phytoestrogens". .... Shy

The "one minute" thing is what it looks like to onlookers, but that's not the case. There are different studies using different methodologies, and this is why it's important to also look at any factors that may have affected the results of the specific study and to look at them as a whole rather than a back and forth between one saying one thing and another saying another. One study is not a monolith that stands above the others. this is why meta reviews are good, and anyone can find these on the online public medical journals.

that idea about progesterone cream building up is nonsense though, and it's unfortunate that alternative health practitioners who advocated the use of progesterone spread this kind of misinformation. Bioidentical USP progesterone has a half life of 14 hours, just like the progesterone your body makes because they are exactly the same, hence bioidentical.

HOWEVER, progestogens, artificial and sometimes patented progesterone analogues, are the ones that build up, and those are the ones found in hormonal birth control preparations. There seems to have been some confusion between the progesterone in progesterone cream and the progestogens in the pharmaceutical drugs. there is a major difference between the two. Your body takes care of bioidentical quite easily while progestogens vary in their effect and half-life.

Of course it's good to look before you leap, but I don't think anyone should shy away from using herbals because they are afraid of the unknown or one lone study says something scary about a concentrated, isolated compound in vitro.

I can understand not wanting to use herbals though, it can be frustrating to try one thing after another and getting side effects or not getting the results you want, and then see all the studies contradicting each other. Perfectly understandable to just trust what you think you need first!

because when it comes down to it, it's not about what some study says, but about how we feel and the results and effects we get from it, and that's why we have this forum to talk about it Big Grin

Hi. Ok so this is the pc cream I have
http://www.vivacehealth.co.nz/serenity-creams.html
This claims to be bio identical.
Can you link me to a study mentioning the 14hr half life? Much appreciated.
Mind you with that aside I do wake up unable to breath nearly EVERY time I used this pc cream for more than a day...
What that means for me (maybe I don't need it) .. That and I hVe read this is in fact a side effect I'm reluctant to use it VERY MUCH SOO Sad

But thanks for clearing up the d3 Smile I actually forgot to take mine todY. Funny thing is, I live by the beach, plenty of sun exposure and yet my D3 test STILL was deficient!
(28-04-2016, 11:47 PM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 09:46 PM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 01:25 AM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]One minute this herb is good for this hormone and next minute turns out it's not and so forth...
Ie fenugreek is cancer protective next minute it's promoting.....
Pc cream is the best thing since sliced bread and supplies safe progesterone OH WAIT no it builds up in the body and takes months to leave and excess progesterone also puts you at risk for the big C...
Best thing... Use adaptogens.. Raise support or balance all hormones not bugger round with raising one then risk unbalancing the rest. Wish I'd taken that approach not mess myself up with said "safe phytoestrogens". .... Shy

The "one minute" thing is what it looks like to onlookers, but that's not the case. There are different studies using different methodologies, and this is why it's important to also look at any factors that may have affected the results of the specific study and to look at them as a whole rather than a back and forth between one saying one thing and another saying another. One study is not a monolith that stands above the others. this is why meta reviews are good, and anyone can find these on the online public medical journals.

that idea about progesterone cream building up is nonsense though, and it's unfortunate that alternative health practitioners who advocated the use of progesterone spread this kind of misinformation. Bioidentical USP progesterone has a half life of 14 hours, just like the progesterone your body makes because they are exactly the same, hence bioidentical.

HOWEVER, progestogens, artificial and sometimes patented progesterone analogues, are the ones that build up, and those are the ones found in hormonal birth control preparations. There seems to have been some confusion between the progesterone in progesterone cream and the progestogens in the pharmaceutical drugs. there is a major difference between the two. Your body takes care of bioidentical quite easily while progestogens vary in their effect and half-life.

Of course it's good to look before you leap, but I don't think anyone should shy away from using herbals because they are afraid of the unknown or one lone study says something scary about a concentrated, isolated compound in vitro.

I can understand not wanting to use herbals though, it can be frustrating to try one thing after another and getting side effects or not getting the results you want, and then see all the studies contradicting each other. Perfectly understandable to just trust what you think you need first!

because when it comes down to it, it's not about what some study says, but about how we feel and the results and effects we get from it, and that's why we have this forum to talk about it Big Grin

Hi. Ok so this is the pc cream I have
http://www.vivacehealth.co.nz/serenity-creams.html
This claims to be bio identical.
Can you link me to a study mentioning the 14hr half life? Much appreciated.
Mind you with that aside I do wake up unable to breath nearly EVERY time I used this pc cream for more than a day...
What that means for me (maybe I don't need it) .. That and I hVe read this is in fact a side effect I'm reluctant to use it VERY MUCH SOO Sad

But thanks for clearing up the d3 Smile I actually forgot to take mine todY. Funny thing is, I live by the beach, plenty of sun exposure and yet my D3 test STILL was deficient!

As that is a topical product it actually CAN build up... but only in fatty tissue, and only if you apply it to a high subcutaneous fat area, like your hips, butt, or breasts. Apply it to your wrists, ankles, etc, like you're supposed to, with low subcutaneous fat and quick access to your bloodstream and build up in fat tissue is not a concern because the bloodstream does not deliver such large doses of progesterone directly into any single fatty tissue unlike a topical directly on that fatty tissue would. Some of it will still end up delivered to fatty tissues, of course, but it'll be thinly spread throughout all tissues, and there won't be any build up at all.
Anyover, please share related research to support this claim:

(28-04-2016, 09:46 PM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]Bioidentical USP progesterone has a half life of 14 hours, just like the progesterone your body makes because they are exactly the same, hence bioidentical.

From research I've found, Progesterone cream has a short half-life in the blood of 5-20 min.

( Catt KJ. ABC of endocrinology. I. Hormones in general. Lancet 1970; 1:763-765. )
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...2ffb&ccp=y

Different Routes of Progesterone Administration and Polycystic Ovary Syndrome: A Review of the Literature :
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/2648...JcTTmmD.99

Progesterone therapy:
http://healyourselfathome.com/SUPPORTING...erone.aspx
lotus: citations, gladly Smile

what I wrote I pulled mainly from memory but I'll pull all the citations I find and I'll try to explain the reasoning behind the 14 hour half life too.

The short half-life you mention seems to be based 1) on oral and injected progesterone, which can be short lived thanks to the liver, or first pass metabolism, as well as 2) the way hormones are bound to be transported in the blood if I'm not wrong, indicated by serum testing. all of this reasoning is not mine, but courtesy ProgesteroneTherapy.com which tends to cite good primary sources.

Transdermal progesterone, or progesterone from cream is different since it bypasses first pass to be absorbed directly into the body.

The second study you cite, first one is behind a paywall for me, actually states that transdermal is not ideal compared to oral because it results in low serum progesterone. however there is more than one way to measure, and serum hormone measurements really only read free hormone levels at the time of testing, not the other 90% or so that are bound to SHBG, etc.. this may explain why earlier research based on the assumptions of serum progesterone should be looked at differently, at least with this in mind of serum compared to salivary versus real effective levels of hormone.

There are advantages and disadvantages with either method, but supposedly salivary shows you your effective hormones floating around in blood more accurately, and this can be pinpointed to the time of the salivary sampling.

This page explains why serum progesterone, or most hormones really, don't paint a complete picture without salivary. most studies, if not all, have relied on serum rather than salivary. It's a republished letter by a Dr. David Zava http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/proge...-test.html

So as for half life of progesterone - Transdermal progesterone from wikipedia on progesterone under "other routes"

Quote:Transdermal progesterone is about 5–7 times stronger than oral progesterone.[1] This is due to the fact transdermal administration bypasses first-pass metabolism.[1] As such, 20–30 mg/day transdermal progesterone is equivalent to about 100–200 mg/day oral progesterone.[1]

With vaginal and rectal administration, a 100 mg dose of progesterone results in peak levels at 4 hours and 8 hours after dosing, respectively, with the levels achieved being in the serum luteal phase range.[105] Following peak serum concentrations, there is a gradual decline in plasma levels, and after 24 hours, serum levels typical of the follicular phase are reached.[105]

sources they cite:

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=AS3UBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA370 (mentions effectiveness of transdermal over oral)

[105] https://books.google.com/books?id=0IAJBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA51 (mentions time to reach peak levels of progesterone after intramuscular injection)

14 hour half life. I seem to remember the 14 hours from Progesterone Therapy under their facts and history of progesterone. so forgive me if it seems like I pulled it from thin air since I didn't cite it to begin with.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/histo...erone.html

Quote:Facts about progesterone

Molecular Formula C21H30O2 (Carbon 21, Hydrogen 30, Oxygen 2)
Molecular weight 314.46
Synonym 4-pregnene-3,20-dione
Melting point 126 C (259 F)
Bioavailability prolonged absorption
Protein binding 96%-99%
Metabolism hepatic to pregnanediols and pregnanolones
Terminal half-life 13.18 1.3
Excretion renal

But I guess it might be a little longer! Wikipedia's says 16-18 hours for oral progesterone and here is what they cite for that https://books.google.com/books?id=IBxBbaDjXw0C&pg=PA74

that study also goes on to say there is no significant accumulation of progesterone or alteration of progesterone metabolism with multiple dosing over 5 days.

I would have copy pasted quotes from the google books but it won't let me select text for some reason. I also try not to see Progesterone Therapy as a primary source or final authority on the subject but I just really like all the information that the author put together there.

and for the record, I know all of this is about progesterone cream but there are other ways to raise progesterone Wink I just think it's a very important and misunderstood hormone, and we're still learning more about what it does for us.
(29-04-2016, 05:48 AM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]lotus: citations, gladly Smile

what I wrote I pulled mainly from memory but I'll pull all the citations I find and I'll try to explain the reasoning behind the 14 hour half life too.

The short half-life you mention seems to be based 1) on oral and injected progesterone, which can be short lived thanks to the liver, or first pass metabolism, as well as 2) the way hormones are bound to be transported in the blood if I'm not wrong, indicated by serum testing. all of this reasoning is not mine, but courtesy ProgesteroneTherapy.com which tends to cite good primary sources.

Transdermal progesterone, or progesterone from cream is different since it bypasses first pass to be absorbed directly into the body.

The second study you cite, first one is behind a paywall for me, actually states that transdermal is not ideal compared to oral because it results in low serum progesterone. however there is more than one way to measure, and serum hormone measurements really only read free hormone levels at the time of testing, not the other 90% or so that are bound to SHBG, etc.. this may explain why earlier research based on the assumptions of serum progesterone should be looked at differently, at least with this in mind of serum compared to salivary versus real effective levels of hormone.

There are advantages and disadvantages with either method, but supposedly salivary shows you your effective hormones floating around in blood more accurately, and this can be pinpointed to the time of the salivary sampling.

This page explains why serum progesterone, or most hormones really, don't paint a complete picture without salivary. most studies, if not all, have relied on serum rather than salivary. It's a republished letter by a Dr. David Zava http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/proge...-test.html

So as for half life of progesterone - Transdermal progesterone from wikipedia on progesterone under "other routes"

Quote:Transdermal progesterone is about 5–7 times stronger than oral progesterone.[1] This is due to the fact transdermal administration bypasses first-pass metabolism.[1] As such, 20–30 mg/day transdermal progesterone is equivalent to about 100–200 mg/day oral progesterone.[1]

With vaginal and rectal administration, a 100 mg dose of progesterone results in peak levels at 4 hours and 8 hours after dosing, respectively, with the levels achieved being in the serum luteal phase range.[105] Following peak serum concentrations, there is a gradual decline in plasma levels, and after 24 hours, serum levels typical of the follicular phase are reached.[105]

sources they cite:

[1] https://books.google.com/books?id=AS3UBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA370 (mentions effectiveness of transdermal over oral)

[105] https://books.google.com/books?id=0IAJBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA51 (mentions time to reach peak levels of progesterone after intramuscular injection)

14 hour half life. I seem to remember the 14 hours from Progesterone Therapy under their facts and history of progesterone. so forgive me if it seems like I pulled it from thin air since I didn't cite it to begin with.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/histo...erone.html

Quote:Facts about progesterone

Molecular Formula C21H30O2 (Carbon 21, Hydrogen 30, Oxygen 2)
Molecular weight 314.46
Synonym 4-pregnene-3,20-dione
Melting point 126 C (259 F)
Bioavailability prolonged absorption
Protein binding 96%-99%
Metabolism hepatic to pregnanediols and pregnanolones
Terminal half-life 13.18 1.3
Excretion renal

But I guess it might be a little longer! Wikipedia's says 16-18 hours for oral progesterone and here is what they cite for that https://books.google.com/books?id=IBxBbaDjXw0C&pg=PA74

that study also goes on to say there is no significant accumulation of progesterone or alteration of progesterone metabolism with multiple dosing over 5 days.

I would have copy pasted quotes from the google books but it won't let me select text for some reason. I also try not to see Progesterone Therapy as a primary source or final authority on the subject but I just really like all the information that the author put together there.

and for the record, I know all of this is about progesterone cream but there are other ways to raise progesterone Wink I just think it's a very important and misunderstood hormone, and we're still learning more about what it does for us.

Actually they use a gel for vaginal and rectal administration and transdermal is also administered through oil dosed with USP progesterone. Most of what you quoted is about transdermal, which is most typically administered with a cream, the oil type is pretty rare, but you did quote a little about vaginal/rectal as well, which is most definitely never administered through a cream.
(28-04-2016, 11:47 PM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 09:46 PM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 01:25 AM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]One minute this herb is good for this hormone and next minute turns out it's not and so forth...
Ie fenugreek is cancer protective next minute it's promoting.....
Pc cream is the best thing since sliced bread and supplies safe progesterone OH WAIT no it builds up in the body and takes months to leave and excess progesterone also puts you at risk for the big C...
Best thing... Use adaptogens.. Raise support or balance all hormones not bugger round with raising one then risk unbalancing the rest. Wish I'd taken that approach not mess myself up with said "safe phytoestrogens". .... Shy

The "one minute" thing is what it looks like to onlookers, but that's not the case. There are different studies using different methodologies, and this is why it's important to also look at any factors that may have affected the results of the specific study and to look at them as a whole rather than a back and forth between one saying one thing and another saying another. One study is not a monolith that stands above the others. this is why meta reviews are good, and anyone can find these on the online public medical journals.

that idea about progesterone cream building up is nonsense though, and it's unfortunate that alternative health practitioners who advocated the use of progesterone spread this kind of misinformation. Bioidentical USP progesterone has a half life of 14 hours, just like the progesterone your body makes because they are exactly the same, hence bioidentical.

HOWEVER, progestogens, artificial and sometimes patented progesterone analogues, are the ones that build up, and those are the ones found in hormonal birth control preparations. There seems to have been some confusion between the progesterone in progesterone cream and the progestogens in the pharmaceutical drugs. there is a major difference between the two. Your body takes care of bioidentical quite easily while progestogens vary in their effect and half-life.

Of course it's good to look before you leap, but I don't think anyone should shy away from using herbals because they are afraid of the unknown or one lone study says something scary about a concentrated, isolated compound in vitro.

I can understand not wanting to use herbals though, it can be frustrating to try one thing after another and getting side effects or not getting the results you want, and then see all the studies contradicting each other. Perfectly understandable to just trust what you think you need first!

because when it comes down to it, it's not about what some study says, but about how we feel and the results and effects we get from it, and that's why we have this forum to talk about it Big Grin

Hi. Ok so this is the pc cream I have
http://www.vivacehealth.co.nz/serenity-creams.html
This claims to be bio identical.
Can you link me to a study mentioning the 14hr half life? Much appreciated.
Mind you with that aside I do wake up unable to breath nearly EVERY time I used this pc cream for more than a day...
What that means for me (maybe I don't need it) .. That and I hVe read this is in fact a side effect I'm reluctant to use it VERY MUCH SOO Sad

But thanks for clearing up the d3 Smile I actually forgot to take mine todY. Funny thing is, I live by the beach, plenty of sun exposure and yet my D3 test STILL was deficient!

I cleared up the misunderstanding in my previous post with an explanation and citations, to sum up, the author Progesterone Therapy wrote in one place that it was about 13 hours, wikipedia says 16-18 hours for oral progesterone, and it seems to be fairly consistent with other administration methods in any case. There is of course the confusing difference between serum levels and salivary levels, and most tests rely on serum levels which don't tell you the whole story.

As for side effects from progesterone cream:

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/proge...tions.html

(user question about cortisol/heart palpitations from PC) http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/is-it...evels.html

(user question about heart palpitaitons/side effects) http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/natur...fects.html

In either case, the author states that the common side effects like the racing heartbeat are due to reactivation of estrogen receptors by progesterone (not taking enough PC to shut them down), which is generally enough to scare some women off from using it from the very beginning. starting on progesterone cream is initially like opening the estrogen receptor floodgates to all the estrogens floating around, so you could imagine what happens there.

Elsewhere throughout the site she states that taking enough progesterone actually shuts down activity of estrogen, thereby reducing and eliminating symptoms of estrogen dominance, which is what progesterone cream became popular for in the first place, even though she says the dosage most take is not high enough.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/estro...nance.html

Quote:Initially progesterone has a stimulatory effect. This is because progesterone activates the oestrogen receptors so making oestrogen the dominant hormone which makes many men and women feel worse.

With progesterone therapy, progesterone gradually becomes the dominant hormone and symptoms begin to ease. Some women never experience estrogen dominance, in others it can take several days, whilst in others it can last longer. Much depends on the amount of excess oestrogen that is present.

Men can also experience oestrogen dominance when first using progesterone.

It is essential to use enough progesterone, about 100-200mg/day, to overcome the excess oestrogen. Many women use too little, 20-40mg/day, so progesterone is always in the stimulation mode. This leaves them in a permanent state of oestrogen dominance.

But, but but I don't take it as gospel. this author is pretty unique in her perspective, even if she backs it up with citations and research. I just see it as an alternative perspective and hope everyone here sees it like this too, and my own posts too Tongue

I believe the progesterone idea is true because of studies like these of progesterone shutting down estrogen activity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7890063

But, if you personally don't feel good using more progesterone cream in the hope that the side effects will clear up, your progesterone levels are adequate and you aren't estrogen dominant, then good! I hope that in defending progesterone, I didn't make a misunderstanding that I was pushing everyone to use it or something.

I personally don't think you or anyone else should use it if they don't want to or they don't even need it, I just think that progesterone isn't that bad and PC is just one way to get it. I mean, you're already taking chaste tree berry, right? Wink
(29-04-2016, 05:58 AM)AbiDrew85 Wrote: [ -> ]Actually they use a gel for vaginal and rectal administration and transdermal is also administered through oil dosed with USP progesterone. Most of what you quoted is about transdermal, which is most typically administered with a cream, the oil type is pretty rare, but you did quote a little about vaginal/rectal as well, which is most definitely never administered through a cream.

This page actually touches upon that one Smile

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/proge...-test.html

Quote:A second study by Rachel Miles, MD, and associates (17) demonstrated that serum testing of progesterone is not reflective of tissue uptake when progesterone is used as a vagina suppository. In this study, progesterone levels in serum and tissue were compared after intramuscular and vaginal delivery of progesterone. After treatment with either intramuscular injection of progesterone or vaginal progesterone suppositories, serum and uterine biopsies were taken to measure blood and tissue uptake of progesterone. Serum levels of progesterone (measured by RIA) were three times higher with intramuscular delivery of progesterone than with vaginal delivery. In striking contrast, tissue uptake in the uterine biopsies was 10 times higher with vaginal delivery of progesterone than with intramuscular injections. For lack of a better understanding, these authors attributed the tissue differences to a "first pass effect," a term used to describe local diffusion of progesterone from the vagina to the uterus without significant systemic delivery to other tissues. (18) However, these authors could not prove or disprove what they described as a "first pass effect" because they did not biopsy other tissues.

Vaginal delivery of progesterone into the body is, in essence, through the epithelial layer of skin and does not differ in this regard from other forms of topical progesterone delivery. Therefore, a more likely explanation for the discrepant serum/tissue results is that when progesterone is delivered vaginally it is rapidly delivered to all tissues throughout the body. The manufacturers of Crinone, a vaginal suppository progesterone gel, make the same claims of a "first pass effect," yet also claim that women have significant improvement in well being, indicating that progesterone also finds its way from the vagina to the brain as well as the uterus. (19)

Edit: here is the original source with all citations at the end http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/drzeinab/Publi...d%20letter[1].pdf

and here is a more up to date article by the same author on the same subject
http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2014/tr...s0114.html
(29-04-2016, 06:21 AM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 11:47 PM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 09:46 PM)anyover88 Wrote: [ -> ]
(28-04-2016, 01:25 AM)ellacraig Wrote: [ -> ]One minute this herb is good for this hormone and next minute turns out it's not and so forth...
Ie fenugreek is cancer protective next minute it's promoting.....
Pc cream is the best thing since sliced bread and supplies safe progesterone OH WAIT no it builds up in the body and takes months to leave and excess progesterone also puts you at risk for the big C...
Best thing... Use adaptogens.. Raise support or balance all hormones not bugger round with raising one then risk unbalancing the rest. Wish I'd taken that approach not mess myself up with said "safe phytoestrogens". .... Shy

The "one minute" thing is what it looks like to onlookers, but that's not the case. There are different studies using different methodologies, and this is why it's important to also look at any factors that may have affected the results of the specific study and to look at them as a whole rather than a back and forth between one saying one thing and another saying another. One study is not a monolith that stands above the others. this is why meta reviews are good, and anyone can find these on the online public medical journals.

that idea about progesterone cream building up is nonsense though, and it's unfortunate that alternative health practitioners who advocated the use of progesterone spread this kind of misinformation. Bioidentical USP progesterone has a half life of 14 hours, just like the progesterone your body makes because they are exactly the same, hence bioidentical.

HOWEVER, progestogens, artificial and sometimes patented progesterone analogues, are the ones that build up, and those are the ones found in hormonal birth control preparations. There seems to have been some confusion between the progesterone in progesterone cream and the progestogens in the pharmaceutical drugs. there is a major difference between the two. Your body takes care of bioidentical quite easily while progestogens vary in their effect and half-life.

Of course it's good to look before you leap, but I don't think anyone should shy away from using herbals because they are afraid of the unknown or one lone study says something scary about a concentrated, isolated compound in vitro.

I can understand not wanting to use herbals though, it can be frustrating to try one thing after another and getting side effects or not getting the results you want, and then see all the studies contradicting each other. Perfectly understandable to just trust what you think you need first!

because when it comes down to it, it's not about what some study says, but about how we feel and the results and effects we get from it, and that's why we have this forum to talk about it Big Grin

Hi. Ok so this is the pc cream I have
http://www.vivacehealth.co.nz/serenity-creams.html
This claims to be bio identical.
Can you link me to a study mentioning the 14hr half life? Much appreciated.
Mind you with that aside I do wake up unable to breath nearly EVERY time I used this pc cream for more than a day...
What that means for me (maybe I don't need it) .. That and I hVe read this is in fact a side effect I'm reluctant to use it VERY MUCH SOO Sad

But thanks for clearing up the d3 Smile I actually forgot to take mine todY. Funny thing is, I live by the beach, plenty of sun exposure and yet my D3 test STILL was deficient!

I cleared up the misunderstanding in my previous post with an explanation and citations, to sum up, the author Progesterone Therapy wrote in one place that it was about 13 hours, wikipedia says 16-18 hours for oral progesterone, and it seems to be fairly consistent with other administration methods in any case. There is of course the confusing difference between serum levels and salivary levels, and most tests rely on serum levels which don't tell you the whole story.

As for side effects from progesterone cream:

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/proge...tions.html

(user question about cortisol/heart palpitations from PC) http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/is-it...evels.html

(user question about heart palpitaitons/side effects) http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/natur...fects.html

In either case, the author states that the common side effects like the racing heartbeat are due to reactivation of estrogen receptors by progesterone (not taking enough PC to shut them down), which is generally enough to scare some women off from using it from the very beginning. starting on progesterone cream is initially like opening the estrogen receptor floodgates to all the estrogens floating around, so you could imagine what happens there.

Elsewhere throughout the site she states that taking enough progesterone actually shuts down activity of estrogen, thereby reducing and eliminating symptoms of estrogen dominance, which is what progesterone cream became popular for in the first place, even though she says the dosage most take is not high enough.

http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/estro...nance.html

Quote:Initially progesterone has a stimulatory effect. This is because progesterone activates the oestrogen receptors so making oestrogen the dominant hormone which makes many men and women feel worse.

With progesterone therapy, progesterone gradually becomes the dominant hormone and symptoms begin to ease. Some women never experience estrogen dominance, in others it can take several days, whilst in others it can last longer. Much depends on the amount of excess oestrogen that is present.

Men can also experience oestrogen dominance when first using progesterone.

It is essential to use enough progesterone, about 100-200mg/day, to overcome the excess oestrogen. Many women use too little, 20-40mg/day, so progesterone is always in the stimulation mode. This leaves them in a permanent state of oestrogen dominance.

But, but but I don't take it as gospel. this author is pretty unique in her perspective, even if she backs it up with citations and research. I just see it as an alternative perspective and hope everyone here sees it like this too, and my own posts too Tongue

I believe the progesterone idea is true because of studies like these of progesterone shutting down estrogen activity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7890063

But, if you personally don't feel good using more progesterone cream in the hope that the side effects will clear up, your progesterone levels are adequate and you aren't estrogen dominant, then good! I hope that in defending progesterone, I didn't make a misunderstanding that I was pushing everyone to use it or something.

I personally don't think you or anyone else should use it if they don't want to or they don't even need it, I just think that progesterone isn't that bad and PC is just one way to get it. I mean, you're already taking chaste tree berry, right? Wink

No I stopped that for now. Going through treatment for sibo know bus the life out of you so started using macs for that energy boost. Man alive do I need it too.
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